ARNIE LERMA: Thanks so much for having us
HOST: Good to have you here. Birgitta, let me ask you first of all—you’re from Sweden and you joined this Church of Scientology many years ago. How many years ago?
BIRGITTA DAGNELL: Oh, I joined the Church in 1970.
HOST: And how long were you in the church?
BD: 14 years.
HOST: And you became eventually the head of the Church’s Office of Special Affairs, right?
BD: Yeah, but it hadn’t really started to operate as well at that time. It was about to form, so I was in that office from Spring 1983 up to around October 1983.
HOST: Now what did you do for the Church of Scientology? What were, what were some the positions you had and why did it, did you belong to it?
BD: What I had to handle was external troubles, and to form front groups with Narconon, CCHR, etc., take care of aggressive media and make friends with media, and city officials and so on.
HOST: Now you say that you set up front groups like Narconon and CCHR. CCHR is the Citizens Commission for Human Rights, right?
BD: Right.
HOST: Why did you set up, why do you call it front groups?
BD: Because they are doing things which make Scientology look more public friendly. It should, it’s a facade for the Church to get the Church accepted by the community.
HOST: Why did you leave the Church?
BD: Well, it was several factors. I was put into their camp; they had kind of a concentration camp in Denmark in 1983 and I, together with all the other Guardian Office members, were put into this camp. We should be rehabilitated, meaning they should crack us down and then build us up to what they wanted us to be.
HOST: When you say concentration camps, what do you mean, concentration camp? That’s a pretty, I mean that word is so loaded.
BD: Yeah, I have not seen anything similar so that’s why I call it concentration camp. Because they didn’t give us food and if they gave us food, it was very little food. For instance, at one moment they gave us 16 slices of bread for 82 people and one, one of us took 6 slices of bread so the rest of us almost—how do I say-- [couldn’t hear word] him up because he took too much.
HOST: Why do you think they gave you so little food?
BD: They were suppressive against us. They wanted us to be very, very low. I remember, for instance, once when I had been there for a long time, I met a friend I had known for years. I met him on the yard, and he said to me, "Hi, Birgitta, what are you doing here?" and I couldn’t even remember his name. It took me a month to remember who that person was.
HOST: Was that because you had so little food?
BD: Yes, so little food, so little sleep, so very bad mental conditions.
HOST: Let me switch the focus to Arnie Lerma. Arnie, you were with the Church up until 1978. Tell me about your experience in the Church of Scientology.
AL: I used to be the, what would be considered the Financial Controller for the Publications Division, which is now called Bridge Publications, and, um, I got out in ’78, I believe, and it was—there was no way that I could continue to hold any hope that Scientology in fact was what it claimed to be.
HOST: Well, why did you lose faith with the Church of Scientology?
AL: It—I had been involved with them for 10 years and I think, you know, enough time had gone by that I just gave up hoping that, perhaps, that what they were telling me was true or that something would be revealed on some upper level that would make the madness that you see, you know, day-to-day when you’re in the organization make sense.
HOST: What—what happened that you’ve described as "madness"?
AL: Well, the last straw was being placed under house arrest here in Clearwater at the Ft. Harrison and being held in a hotel room, um, and then being taken to another room and questioned by two staffers--I suppose they were members of the Guardian’s Office then—and, um, was given—see, and I don’t remember the exact wording but I remember the conclusion I had and the decision that I made. And, um, I was given an offer of safe passage out of the state of Florida with no bodily harm, um, if I would give up a plan. Well, we had a marriage license with Suzette Hubbard and we were trying to elope. Of course, during her auditing it came up.
HOST: Well, now, you tried to elope with the daughter of the founder of Scientology.
AL: Right, and I think that, um, I was still a little too independent thinking, and that’s not considered upstat in Scientology.
HOST: They objected to your relationship with her.
AL: Oh, absolutely.
HOST: How long were you held in house arrest in Clearwater?
AL: Oh, just a few days.
HOST: Let me turn to a spokesperson for the Church right now. She is Sylvia Stanard. Sylvia, thanks for joining us, it’s good to have you here.
SYLVIA STANARD: Thank you.
HOST: Is there such thing as house arrest at the Church in Clearwater?
SS: Absolutely not. And Arnie Lerma knows and of course doesn’t mention that he didn’t leave, he was actually thrown out of the Church for quite a lot of other indiscretions and financial--
AL: That’s a fabrication.
HOST: All right, well let me just—um, did your Church hold Arnie Lerma in house arrest in Clearwater for a few days in 1978?
SS: Absolutely not.
HOST: Does your church maintain concentration-like camp situations in Europe as Birgitta mentioned a moment ago?
SS: Absolutely not, absolutely not—
BD: Yes they do.
SS: Birgitta, you were, you were in Berlin at a conference put together by the German government.
BD: Yes I was.
SS: Yes; that’s, that’s my question for Birgitta is, this, what’s happening here is there’s a lot of people who are being paid to come into Clearwater—
BD: No I’m not being paid—
SS: Who are being, who are being financed—
BD: I’m paying--
SS: Who paid for your flight?
BD: I’m paying all my expenses myself—
SS: OK, you’re one of the few. There are quite a few others including a critic of the church who recently had a house bought for him. There’s quite a few people that are being paid to come in and attack the Church, and that’s what this is all about. What’s happening is that these people who are coming into Clearwater to talk about the Church are almost all involved in litigation against the Church trying to win money from the Church, or these kind of things where they have a very big financial vested interest in attacking the Church. And that’s what people in Clearwater need to know. And then the people in Clearwater who are residents here—there are thousands of Scientologists who live in Clearwater and thousands who come every week, and who are very involved in the community, who are doing community activities, who are doing things. People need to come and look for themselves. Come to the Ft. Harrison. Look, you know--take a look yourself. Have you ever seen anybody being held? No. Anybody can come at any time and have a full Open House, go for a tour throughout the Church, go for a tour throughout Ft. Harrison. That’s what the Church is all about, and that’s what people need to really look for themselves, not listen to people who are trying to win money—
BD: No—
SS: Arnie Lerma has a case against the Church—
BD: [couldn’t hear (people were all talking at the same time)]
AL: That case was brought by you, not me—
SS: And you tried to make money on it and you’re alleging now--
AL: Scientology’s lies continue from the first moment you get in till long after you are out.
SS: (snickers) You are involved in litigation against the Church.
AL: You are the one—who sued me? It’s RTC vs. Lerma.
SS: Exactly.
AL: Or are you illiterate?
SS: It is—
HOST: OK, let me back up. It would seem that there’s a giant gulf here and I still want to know about people being held against their will. Is there an independent way that we can verify that other people have been held against their will by the Church of Scientology? Can we—Birgitta, were people who were held in this alleged concentration-like situation—uh, have others come forward to, to second what you have said to us?
BD: Well, my daughters.
HOST: Your daughters can testify that this indeed happened to you.
BD: Yes, yes.
SS: Were they there?
BD: No, they were not there. Um—
SS: There are quite a few statements we have from people who *were* there who say it didn’t happen.
BD: There is people outside, actually, a lot more people who were there who *can* testify about it. Of course.
HOST: Let me bring our other guest in on this too. His name is Martin Ottmann. Martin, you for a time worked at the spiritual headquarters at the Church; you eventually left. Why did you leave the Church of Scientology?
MARTIN OTTMANN: Um, I had to leave the so-called headquarters in 1992 because my visa had run out, and I tried to get back to the United States but, uh, while this was in progress, I had to stay a certain amount of time in Germany, and at that time I worked in a printing company in Frankfurt owned by Scientologists, and finally I left Scientology because of my experience at the printing company, because the Scientologists who—there were several Scientologists who had run this printing company—falsified tax balances and they put money out of the company into Scientology, and finally I reported them to the German CID. The company went bankrupt and one of the former—one of the former owners, one of the Scientologists, went to jail in 1994 for it.
HOST: As a result of, as a result of your coming forward.
MO: I don’t know. Um, he went to jail and it’s for the tax reasons for several things he did.
HOST: There’s a—
MO: Against the—
SS: That was a private company, you’re saying, it wasn’t a Church company.
MO: It was a private company and the former Scientologists were all patrons of the IAS, um, high-ranking public members who paid each $250,000 to the IAS from the company who went bankrupt in 1993.
SS: So it’s a private company that went bankrupt that you worked for.
MO: Yeah.
SS: Exactly. And just like any other church, there are quite a few private companies--that are owned by Baptists, that are owned by Catholics, that are owned by Muslims--that go bankrupt and that might have—I don’t know about this particular case, but that’s, that’s the point is what’s happening here is that if you take individual cases, particularly as this is happening in Germany, where individual Scientologists who are members of the church, who might have a company. Their company—some companies do very well, just like any other business; some companies don’t do as well. And when a company doesn’t do well, suddenly it’s the Church of Scientology. Well that’s not—that’s not true and it’s not fair. If you have a Catholic company that is—not a Catholic company, a company that is owned by someone who is Catholic—that goes bankrupt, do you say the Church—you know, the Catholic Church did this? Absolutely not. No one would ever think of it. And that’s, that’s an abuse that we’re concerned about is this generalization.
MO: These people were so-called regged—this is a Scientology term—they were persuaded to give the money to the Church of Scientology by Church staff. I can tell the name—the name is Achim Bendig, who was the IAS registrar; and I have published on the Internet an internal Knowledge Report made by the owner where he can, where he can, he describes the registration cycle—this is another Scientology term--which led to the funding of the Scientology organization; and it was clearly that the Scientology organizations were set up on these persons to get a lot of money out of it, from it, and, and this registrar, Achim Bendig, knew about the financial status and the financial situation of the company.
HOST: So you’re saying that the Church was set up deliberately as a way to, among other things—I mean the company was set up as a way to pass money to the Church?
MO: They, uh, the Scientology officials, they viewed this organization and other companies as a money pool, and this is not a single incident in Germany. There are others. For example—
SS: This is, this is what’s happening in Germany and this is why there are four years in a row the U.S. State Department has condemned what’s going on in Germany, the United Nations has issued reports about what’s going in Germany, because this is exactly the kind of thing that we’re facing in Germany—
AL: They didn’t do it the last report--
SS: Where, where people—yes they did, quite--a page and a half, a full page and a half. The longest report on Scientology in the U.S. State Department report in the last four years was this year. The reason that this is going on is because in Germany, because of the kinds of things that this man is saying, that just because a person is a member of the Church, there are these wild accusations that—you’ve just heard the accusations, but there are these wild accusations just because they are a member of the Church. Now there are thousands and thousands of members of the Church that are good upstanding citizens that pay a lot of taxes, that are very involved in the community, that do well in business. There are a lot of major corporations that I have family and friends that are involved in that are high executives and, that are name-brand corporations. Just because a person is a member of the Church of Scientology or just because a person is a member of the Catholic Church or the Baptist Church doesn’t mean that their personal business and their personal tax returns is something that should even be the subject of a radio show.
HOST: All right, well, let’s, let’s talk some more about it because I think obviously people in this community are very interested in the subject of Scientology. Uh, there is going to be a demonstration this weekend at 9:30, 9:30 on December 6 and 6:30—9:30 a.m. December 6 and 6:30 p.m.-- in Clearwater opposite the headquarters of the Church of Scientology to protest among other things what the critics say is the cruelty to its own members; and you folks are using the death of Lisa McPherson two years ago as a way to try to encourage people to protest the church. I wonder if, if one of you could take this question of Lisa McPherson’s death two years ago and tell us what you think it shows to us about Scientology. Arnie?
AL: I’m, I’m not completely familiar with the case but I can point out what I’ve noticed. Um, the logs—there were logs that were kept, um, detailing Scientol—Lisa’s confinement in the Ft. Harrison. The logs start before the incident where she was running down the street--when she was in that car accident and then was going down the street taking off her clothes, which indicate to me that that was her first attempt to escape. Um, Lisa McPherson worked for an outfit and was getting paid a large sum of money, um, selling some kind of insurance forms or something like that. And, it’s, and it was a Scientolo—or, it was a WISE corporation where they pay 10% of their income or profit to Scientology.
HOST: What, when you say "WISE", what does WISE stand for—
AL: World Institute of Scientology International or some—what is WISE?
SS: World Institute of Scientology Enterprises.
AL: Enterprises.
SS: Which, which are corporations that use Mr. Hubbard’s technologies and--management technologies to help their business do better—
AL: May I ask you one question while, while you’re on a roll here?
SS: I’m not on a roll, you are. (snickers)
AL: Um, can you tell me if this quote that I’m about to read is correct? All right?
SS: If you’ll let me then use a quote from you after that-
AL: As being true? "The court record is replete with evidence that Scientology is nothing in reality but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum amount of money from its adepts by pseudo-scientific theories and to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to continue with their sect"—
SS: What court record is that?
AL: "The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, L. Ron Hubbard."
SS: What, what court record--
AL: Judge Breckinridge, Los Angeles Superior Court.
SS: I don’t know, I’m not familiar enough with the exact position—
AL: Don’t you work in the Legal Department?
SS: No, I don’t. But I’ll tell you what I’m concerned about and I think people don’t know about somebody like Arnie Lerma and I think it’s important people in this community do know where you’re coming from. Uh, the, this picket was advertised in the Spotlight newspaper. The Spotlight newspaper, according to a new book out called "In Hitler’s Shadow", is one of the biggest neo-Nazi publications in the United States.
AL: Oh, [couldn’t hear words]--
SS: Liberty Lobby, according to the Anti-Defamation League in a new booklet just published, "Hate on the Internet", is the number one anti-Semite group in the United States. Arnie Lerma is on the board of policy of Liberty Lobby.
AL: That’s not true.
SS: You--I’ve got your postings saying you are.
AL: What’s the date of it?
SS: I don’t have it with me--
AL: Yeah--
SS: But it’s a year ago.
AL: Mm-hmm.
SS: So you’ve resigned now from the Liberty Lobby.
AL: There’s no resign, that’s a--you pay $15 extra and they let you vote.
SS: And you spoke at their national convention a year and a half ago.
AL: And you know what I spoke about?
SS: Yes!--
AL: I spoke about the Liberty Tree and the fact that the Internet is the Liberty Tree of the ‘90s--
SS: And, and it’s a neo-Nazi publication, it’s the number one anti-Semite hate publication--
AL: Well--
SS: In the United States, according to the ADL, and you’re going to the national convention—
AL: All right, now we don’t need to argue about this, but perhaps the most neo-Nazi anti-Semite part of it might be described as a part called Institute for Historical Review. Correct?
SS: Yes--
AL: In your opinion? Good.
SS: Absolutely.
AL: IHR was taken over by Tom Marcellus, Scientologist--
SS: Not--
AL: Field Staff Member--
SS: Not, not true.
AL: Yes it was—
HOST: OK, we should say—let me just back up.
SS: (laughs)
HOST: For the audience that doesn’t know, the Institute for Historical Review denies that the Holocaust ever happened. It is a, it is--by some, by some estimates it is a neo-Nazi group. I think they would argue with me. Now you’re saying, Arnie—
AL: Scientologists took it over.
HOST: All right--
AL: They went and used the names against Germany in their fight against Germany.
HOST: All right, and, and, Sylvia of the Church of Scientology, you’re saying it’s not true that one of your top staff members has now taken over IHR?
SS: Absolutely not.
AL: Is Tom Marcellus a Scientologist--
HOST: Is Tom Marcellus a Scientologist?
SS: Tom Marcellus, at least several years ago, was a Scientologist. I don’t know—
AL: Is he [couldn’t hear word]
MO: He is--
SS: He is not a staff member, he has never been a staff member.
AL: He’s a Field Staff Member--
SS: And the point with the IHR that is of interest is that there is a rift between Willis Carto that, uh, Arnie Lerma and Larry Wollersheim and quite a few other people who are involved in this picket are good friends with. He is the head, he is, according to this book, internationally known in neo-Nazi movement.
AL: Hmmm—
SS: Now that’s, that’s what we’re talking about—
AL: I went to Willis Carto to find out about you folks, because when I heard, when I found out about the takeover, that Scientologists had taken over IHR—
MO: Can I--
AL: And we compared notes about Scientology--
SS: Scientologists did not take over IHR--
AL: I gave him a book sort of like the book I just gave you--
HOST: All, right--
MO: Can I say something--
HOST: Tom, Tom, let me get you in on this--
SS: Well that, well that raises up the question of what’s happening with this picket and why we’re so, the Church is so concerned about it—
HOST: Tom, we’re gonna get to that in just a second--
AL: Scientology is [couldn’t hear word] organization--
HOST: But let’s--Martin Ottmann--
MO: I have some background information about Thomas Marcellus. He was the Executive Director of IHR from 1981 until 1995. In 1991 he attended a course in the Scientology headquarters, the Dynamic Sort-Out Assessment. In 1992 he became sponsor of the IAS. He paid $5,000 to the IAS—
HOST: The IAS is the Inst--
MO: International Association of Scientologists. It’s the official membership of Scientologists. So while he was the Executive Director of the IHR, he became a Scientologist per the documents. It’s from the "Impact" magazine, from an official Scientology magazine and later--
SS: And then resigned from IHR--
MO: And later--
HOST: Let me ask--
MO: Thomas Marcellus was kicked out of IHR because the other Nazis in, within this organization accused him of, uh, undermining the organization with Scientology.
HOST: All right--
MO: Then he became a patron of the IAS. He paid another 40, he paid another $35,000--
AL: Incidentall-
SS: But what--
AL: The president of International, of IAS, is Heber Jentzsch, and it’s my understanding that he’s out on $1 million bail on charges--
SS: He’s the president of IAS? That’s news to me.
AL: He used to be. Is he not? You’ve changed it now.
SS: He’s the president of the IAS?
AL: Yes.
MO: No.
SS: He’s never been, he’s never been—
AL: Who’s the president of IAS?
MO: Janet McLaughlin.
HOST: All right, you know, guys, let me just slow this down a little bit here because I hope the audience is keeping up with us. We’re talking about the Church of Scientology today, and our guests are three critics, three former members of the Church. They are Birgitta Dagnell, Arnie Lerma and Martin Ottmann. Also here is one of the officials in the Church, the External Affairs Director, Sylvia Stanard. Sylvia, did, did L. Ron Hubbard ever subscribe to conspiracy theories? Did he ever think that the big bankers were out to get him and to undermine the Church?
SS: I personally don’t know exactly every theory he ever subscribed to. I have never read anything from Mr. Hubbard saying anything like that.
HOST: Um--
SS: I don’t know--
HOST: It is a theory that neo-Nazis and conspiratorialists hold, that, that the big bankers and all that, all that are out to get them, right? Did, did L. Ron Hubbard ever hold, hold that theory?
SS: I’ve, I’ve never read anything saying that--
HOST: Let me just play, let me just play a tape of L. Ron Hubbard here for just a moment and get everybody to respond to it. Here is, in his own words, L. Ron Hubbard:
TAPE OF L. RON HUBBARD: --on this planet are less than 12 men; less than 12 men. They are members of the Bank of England and other higher financial circles. They own and control newspaper chains and they are, oddly enough, directors in all the mental health groups in the world which have sprung up. These chaps are very interesting fellows. They have fantastically corrupt backgrounds—uh, illegitimate children, uh, government graft—um,a very unsavory lot; and they apparently, some time in the rather distant past, had determined upon a course of action. Being in control of most of the gold supplies of the planet, they entered upon a program of bringing every government to bankruptcy and under their thumb so that no government would be able to act politically without their permission.
HOST: All right, well, there’s, there’s a--according to L. Ron, there’s a conspiracy of international bankers. Uh, he goes on to say that this conspiracy is aimed towards the Church of Scientology. He was a believer in conspiracy theories, wasn’t he?
SS: I, I don’t know, I’ve never personally met the man to know that. What I know is what I as a Scientologist have read and studied about the religious beliefs of Scientology; and that--*that*--the issue here really is my First Amendment right to believe what I want to believe about my religion without my religion being attacked by people coming from out of state—out of the country—to come to protest here at the international headquarters of my church, and to not—
HOST: Do you believe that these protesters are violent?
SS: Absolutely. I have postings saying, "Blow up your local Church of Scientology today", "So-called Church ought to be destroyed". I have a whole, whole raft of postings from many of the people who are supposed to be here tomorrow. Um, the oncology bomb--the ontology bomb detonated in Oklahoma was meant for Scientology". "If only someone would bomb their new tourist trap"—these are the kinds of things that--
HOST: Let, let me get—
SS: That are being said on the Internet
HOST: Let me get—all right, let me get the critics to respond. Uh, earlier this week, the Church of Scientology tried to prevent you folks from holding a protest, saying that you were gonna be violent. Uh, let’s take that first and then let me ask her about—let me ask you about her religious freedom. Are you guys gonna be violent at this protest?
AL: Absolutely not. We’re worried about them.
BD: Yes.
HOST: Why are you worried about them—
AL: They were pushing us and shoving us around at the last picket.
HOST: You had a protest a year ago and they were pushing you around?
AL: Yes—
SS: Not true. I was there—
HOST: Now wait a minute, wait a minute, hold on, let me just ask him: How did they push you around?
AL: Um, they would block your—they would block your ability to walk. They would surround us with other pickets. Um, they would place themselves in a position where you could not walk any further. It was sort of like what they did to Keith Henson in bringing some fellow that, you know, they, they deceived a judge the same way they deceived Judge Brinkema to get the, um, writ of seizure on my home, which was later vacated—all of your raids have been vacated after they get all the details—but they’re, they’re adept at deceiving judges and baffling them.
HOST: All right, uh, so, so, let me, let me turn it back to Sylvia. Sylvia, your people pushed, uh, this group of anti-Scientology protesters around last year at the protest.
SS: No, we didn’t and he didn’t say we did. He said that they were blocked from walking further; that’s not the same as pushing. I didn’t, I didn’t see that personally.
AL: We were bumped and jostled below camera level--
SS: We tried to talk-we tried to talk with them. There were quite a few people, including myself who was out there with Arnie, saying "Come on, Arnie, let’s talk." That’s been our position all along—
AL: I’d like to talk about the last time I talked with her—
SS: "Let’s talk about the Church of Scientology. Let’s talk about your complaints. Let’s negotiate; let’s see what your real upsets are." But it comes down again and again and again to being a financial issue where they are vested interest in trying to make millions of dollars from the Church. And that is--
BD: You are-
SS: The Lisa McPherson story that you’re talking about isn’t a story. It happened two years ago—
BD: You are the one who are-
SS: Suddenly, when the aunt tries to sue—hold on a minute—for $80 million, now it’s suddenly a story. Now that’s what’s happened time and again. Larry Wollersheim is getting paid. Arnie Lerma is getting paid—
AL: What do you mean—what are you talking about, I’m getting paid?
SS: You’re getting money under the—under the counter. It’s been on the Internet. You’re, you’ve been financed. Larry Wollersheim—
AL: I’ve been soliciting postage stamps—
SS: Larry Wollersheim—you’ve been handing out flyers saying "Donations received--willingly received" constantly—
AL: Absolutely—
SS: Absolutely, you’re, you’re—
AL: Absolutely—
SS: You’re getting financed—
HOST: Who do you think is financing—
SS: Larry Wollersheim—
HOST: Laura—I mean—I’m sorry, Sylvia, who do you think is financing them?
SS: Well, a guy named Bob Minton has been admitted in court cases, has, for instance, uh, been involved in giving money to, to, um—
HOST: OK, Bob Minton. Let me toss it back to Arnie Lerma and, uh, the critics. Are you guys being financed and what do you think of this accusation?
AL: At one point during my litigation, after two years of the most intense litigation that the attorneys that were representing me had ever experienced, I offered to sell my computer to Bob Minton, the one that I used to log on to the Internet with, because I was out of money.
SS: The insurance company paid for all your legal fees and you know it.
AL: Yes, but who was feeding me while I was doing all of that?
SS: You were. You were out busy. You were telling me that you—
AL: Absolutely—
SS: You work only one or two days a week because you like to lay around the house the rest of the time--
AL: But I mean, this is all, this is all the time that you were keeping us tied up with litigations—
SS: You told me that—
AL: And the litigation stress—
SS: But you did give the false impression—
AL: Once you inflict the same way you use the RPF, you can destroy people’s minds—
SS: You just gave the false impression that--
AL: So that they don’t remember what happened to them while they’re in.
SS: The point is, you just gave the false impression that you paid for this litigation—
HOST: OK—
SS: The insurance company paid for this litigation—
AL: No, no, no, no, the insurance company paid the attorneys’ cost—
HOST: This is all, this is all kind of inside baseball to everybody.
SS: (laughs)
HOST: Let me get out—let me get to some of the larger issues.
SS: You’re right.
AL: The last time I talked to this lady she swore a false affidavit in my case—
BD: I am not paid by anyone—
AL: So I don’t want to talk to her.
SS: I’ve never filed an affidavit in your case
BD: So why are you saying that I am paid?
HOST: All right, um—
SS: I didn’t say you were—
BD: Yes, you said the critics.
SS: I said he is.
HOST: All right. I don’t think—
SS: And I don’t believe you probably went to Germany on your own.
BD: Yes I did.
SS: OK, I’d like to see evidence of that.
HOST: All right—
BD: Yes you can because I [couldn’t hear word] on a business trip--
HOST: OK, guys, this—
SS: [couldn’t hear word] from Germany?
HOST: OK, I’ll kick you all out of this room if you don’t listen to me. Seriously, um, you guys, you critics, say that the Church of Scientology, um, ultimately aims to take over the world and that it is a fascist organization, secret at the top with the membership of Scientology not completely aware what the aims and the goals of the people at the top are. Explain that to me.
AL: Uh, Hubbard had a plan once to take over South Africa many years ago. Um, I don’t know all the details of it but I remember reading it in various policy letters. They wanted a safe harbor for many years. They wanted a place where they would be the ones making the law.
HOST: What’s the proof of that?
AL: That’s written in policy letters, I mean, that’s, that’s written.
HOST: Did, did L. Ron Hubbard want to take over the, the nation of South Africa?
SS: I’ve never seen that. I’ve been in the Church 22 years and it’s amazing the things that pops out of people like Arnie Lerma’s mouth of "L. Ron Hubbard says this, L. Ron Hubbard says that." I’ve never seen—the large majority of these quotes I’ve never seen or heard, and I’ve studied, and I’ve studied--
AL: And any time we try to post documents to substantiate these we get sued under copyright trying to substantiate your denials—
SS: Not any time. When you posted 136 full pages—
AL: 61 pages. Of a 130 page affidavit.
SS: That was, as the Court found, in violation of copyright.
AL: What did they charge me with?
SS: You—
AL: What was my fine?
SS: Your fine was $2,500, we won the case—
AL: How much did you spend to get that $2,500?
SS: That’s irrelevant.
AL: $1.7 million.
SS: It was--that’s irrelevant.
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