Larry King Live, 5/28/91--The Church of Scientology: Religion or Business?


Subject: fwd: Larry King transcript
From: tilman@berlin.snafu.de (Tilman Hausherr)
Date: 1996/06/29
Message-ID: 31d567a2.11305212@news.snafu.de
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology

Here's the transcript of one Larry King show about scientology. Read it and have fun hearing Heber Jentzsch ranting. I laughed and laughed reading this.

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CNN
Larry King Live
28.5.1991

The Church of Scientology - Religion or Business?

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Larry King Live. Tonight: The Church of Scientology - Is it a serious religion or a global scam that leaves thousands of destitute victims in its wake? Plus, city-slick comedy from Billy Crystal. Now, here's Larry King.

LARRY KING: Good evening from Washington - another edition of Larry King Live. For Hollywood, the Church of Scientology is a star-studded savior to some rich and famous clients. Founded by the late L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology may massage some celebrity egos, but some less-glamorous members claim the church is nothing more than a money-hungry center for mind control. Accused of mental and physical abuse along with a laundry list of federal crimes, Scientology is under renewed attack.

In a little while, we'll meet Lisa Halverson, a 15-year member of Scientology, who resigned six weeks ago. But first, joining us from our studios in Los Angeles is Heber Jentzsch, the President of the Church of Scientology International. That church was racked apart in a front-page story in Time magazine. It took a full-page ad today showing a Time magazine cover of Adolf Hitler - an old Time issue in which the Scientologists claim that Time once kind of supported Hitler.

Are you in a war with Time here, trying to deflect their accusations, Heber?

HEBER JENTZSCH, President, Church of Scientology: Well, for you to say that we're in a war with Time magazine is to indicate that they've made some sort of attack on Scientology. I have to tell you, Larry, that Time magazine made a rather despicable attack on Scientology. It was a complete hatchet job, as many people have said around the country. They made no attempt in any way to show anything positive about Scientology and I find-

KING: All right, then let's discuss some of the- They said you did things like mind control, brainwash members, excessive demands for money, psychotherapeutic treatments called 'auditing,' lie-detector devices, spin-off organizations designed to get tax-exempt status, skimming of dollars by church leaders.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Well, you know, Time magazine has made all those charges, you know, and I think it's interesting that they have made those charges. You mentioned USA Today. It was interesting that we did put that article in USA Today. In fact, I have it right here. [Mr. Jentzsch holds up newspaper article] You can see that this was when Time magazine put this out on Hitler back in the '30s. They put a positive point on Hitler. It's kind of interesting that they did so. This was after Hitler had invaded Czechoslovakia, after he had put together the concentration camps of Europe, after he-

KING: What are you implying?

Mr. JENTZSCH: What I'm implying is, you know, Time magazine was wrong then, Larry, and they're just plain wrong now.

KING: Why you, though? Why is Scientology, Heber, picked on?

Mr. JENTZSCH: Well, I think that Scientology is a very powerful religion. It's a religion that works for people. In fact, it has a technology which deals with the human spirit. People find that it helps them in their own particular lives. And Scientology represents a religious technology in the world that works. Because it is that-

KING: OK, all right. Fine, and there are-

Mr. JENTZSCH: Because it is that, I think that vested interests who - especially in the psychiatric field - have attacked Scientology because they feel that people would be- that they would be threatened, that their particular multibillion-dollar cartel of assault on the American public would be threatened.

KING: So the psychiatric field - let's say the American Psychiatric Association would have the power to get the FBI to take your records, Time magazine to do a story on you, spread bad word about you among major circles? This would be the power of a division of medicine?

Mr. JENTZSCH: Well, you know, Larry, the point simply is we attacked psychiatry a long time ago in 1950 with the book Dianetics. We exposed the fact that they were using the brutalization of electric shock, psycho-surgery, that sort of thing. And because we've done that we've had a long-term battle. They've also gone to Government. I don't think that the Internal Revenue Service is the great friend of mankind. We've had to fight that particular battle very strongly ourselves and we've been very effective at it.

KING: Let's answer a few questions. Does Scientology charge its members anything?

Mr. JENTZSCH: Well, Scientology does charge its members for its services. There are people who want the services. You know what? They pay it because they find that it's very valuable.

KING: OK, what does it cost to join?

Mr. JENTZSCH: It doesn't cost anything to join Scientology.

KING: Do you have regular services?

Mr. JENTZSCH: We have regular services and people come and study Scientology. They study books on Scientology and they learn about the Scientology religion and they get counseling on a very one-to-one basis. It's a very effective religion. Look, we have over 100,000 people we've taken off of drugs internationally. Larry, who's harmed by that? Who's harmed by that? I say no one. I think that it's incredible that we've been able to do that with all the resistance there is, you know, from some people who like to see that drugs are still out there. We have not-

KING: The charge that you're cultish; that you force, say, family members to separate from other family members; put down family members who don't like you; try to separate, say, child from mother-

Mr. JENTZSCH: You know, I've heard all that stuff. There are eight million Scientologists internationally. I have a large family. I'm still very much in communication with my family. I find that Scientologists- As a matter of fact, we did a little study and found that Scientologists increased their relationships with their family. Sure, there might be a few people who have a negative view of it but, I'll tell you, that's a very few with eight million members around the world. We're a very fast-growing- the fastest-growing religion in the world today.

KING: Obviously. Does one leave one's religion to become a Scientologist?

Mr. JENTZSCH: No.

KING: Are you a former Jew or a former Catholic?

Mr. JENTZSCH: No, I've found people- By the way, I've talked to rabbis who have been members of the Church of Scientology, priests who have been members of the Church of Scientology. People find that Scientology increases their understanding of their own religious beliefs, their own understanding of themselves, and they find it extremely valuable. That's why they contribute to Scientology.

KING: So you're saying this is an organized campaign against you, primarily by the psychiatric profession whose influence spreads to the headquarters of Time magazine?

Mr. JENTZSCH: Well, I'll tell you what, Larry. Watch USA Today every day for the next few weeks and you'll see this whole story unfold because we're going to tell the story with this advocacy advertising. We're going to show exactly what happened. We're going to tell our story, uninterfered with, unmixed by all this kind of assault and attack. Scientology is going to get its story out. Watch that every day, Larry. It's going to be one incredible story, I tell you that.

KING: OK.

Mr. JENTZSCH: And it's very, very interesting.

KING: The story of your faith; not of Time?

Mr. JENTZSCH: No, not of Time. I think we also will tell a bit about Time because I think people have to look at what Time has done. They have to know what the truth is-

KING: OK, we-

Mr. JENTZSCH: -and if Time can't live with the truth, well, that's the way it is.

KING: Heber Jentzsch is President of the Church of Scientology. In a moment, Lisa Halverson, a 15-year member of the church who recently quit. She'll tell us why. We'll have a major discussion on this topic as well with others joining us. Billy Crystal later. This is Larry King Live in Washington. Stay there.

[Commercial break]

KING: With us is Heber Jentzsch. He is President of the Church of Scientology International - that church founded by L. Ron Hubbard. We're also joined in Los Angeles by Lisa Halverson - Lisa a 15-year member of the church who recently quit - and, here in Washington, Jerry Whitfield, former Scientologist, who now runs intervention groups designed to help people get out of the church; and Donald Sills. Donald is President of the Coalition for Religious Freedom.

Let's go back to Lisa. Why did you quit?

LISA HALVERSON, Former Scientologist: Why did I quit? My parents were very concerned about my involvement in Scientology and they brought some exit counselors to talk to me who had some very alarming things to say about Scientology of which I, as a very obedient member, was completely unaware of. And I was so shocked to find out about the criminal activities of Scientology and of all the lies that L. Ron Hubbard had perpetrated about himself and his past and his apparent achievements that I could no longer remain in the group.

KING: You say your parents affected you, Lisa. How old are you?

Ms. HALVERSON: I'm 37.

KING: Isn't that a little late to have parental effect on what religion you choose?

Ms. HALVERSON: It's very late to have parental effect on what religion you choose and they just about decided not to do the intervention because they didn't want to interfere in my life, but I am so thankful that they did do that because I feel very liberated and very free at the moment, whereas I was not feeling that way in Scientology.

KING: Why, then, if you weren't feeling that way - if Scientology wasn't bringing you what you wanted - why didn't you leave?

Ms. HALVERSON: Because I didn't know how I felt when I was in Scientology. I was too wrapped up in the mind-control business of it. I thought-

KING: You mean, you thought you felt good and your parents told you you didn't feel good?

Ms. HALVERSON: My parents didn't tell me I didn't feel good. I came to my own conclusion after I was able to evaluate the information on both sides of the story.

KING: All right. Give me some examples of things you found out that caused you to lose interest.

Ms. HALVERSON: Well, about 10 years ago or so 11 Scientologists were arrested on- They were found guilty of having infiltrated Government agencies. And I found out that this still goes on today, but the church tells us that they don't do that.

KING: Infiltrate, like, what agency? To do what?

Ms. HALVERSON: Well, they- That's really beyond my ken, to be perfectly honest with you. I was a rank-and-file Scientologist. I was not someone in the upper echelon of the church and so what the upper echelon of the church does is very dirty but the average Scientologist is not made aware of these things.

KING: OK, well-

Mr. JENTZSCH: Larry, I can respond to that-

Ms. HALVERSON: I didn't interrupt you, Heber, so-

KING: OK, hold it, hold it.

Ms. HALVERSON: -don't interrupt me.

KING: What did it cost you every year to be a Scientologist?

Ms. HALVERSON: Over 15 years I spent close to $ 250,000. Some years I spent $10,000, $ 20,000, $ 30,000, $ 40,000, $ 50,000. Other years I didn't spend anything. There were years where I wasn't eligible to do services because I had left staff and I had freeloader debts to pay back to the church before I was able to then pay the church for more services.

KING: There were no pluses over the 15 years?

Ms. HALVERSON: There were some pluses - probably more towards the beginning than towards the end.

KING: Did they force you to stay?

Ms. HALVERSON: Well, they make it very difficult for you to leave. They make it very uncomfortable for you to leave and-

KING: Example?

Ms. HALVERSON: Well, now I'm speaking out against the church and I could be declared a suppressive person and open to fair game. And fair game - they'll do anything. They'll kill your pets, try to run you off the freeway, you know-

KING: They'll what? They'll kill-

Mr. JENTZSCH: I'm sitting right next to you and you say that?

KING: Hold it, hold it, hold it, Heber.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Larry! Larry!

KING: I know, I'll have you comment in a second.

Ms. HALVERSON: Larry, I can't hear you.

KING: Lisa, they will kill your pets?

Ms. HALVERSON: Well, I heard that that happened to some other people after they came out publicly against Scientology. It says in this ethics book here [Holds up book] that to speak out publicly against Scientology is a suppressive act. Yet, in this other book here [Holds up second book] it talks about the creed of the Church of Scientology where L. Ron Hubbard says that the church believes that one can speak freely and one can comment freely on the opinions of others. But in Scientology if you criticize L. Ron Hubbard or speak out publicly against it you're declared suppressive.

KING: Heber, it's your floor.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Thanks. You know, I heard so many things there. First of all, I want to indicate that she's talking from the fact that she has been deprogrammed by people who are members of the Cult Awareness Network. That is a criminal organization which is involved with kidnapping people-

Ms. HALVERSON: I was not kidnapped-

Mr. JENTZSCH: -ripping them away from their faith-

Ms. HALVERSON: -and I wasn't deprogrammed.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Ripping them away from their faith. They've held people against their will over the years. Their founder was Ted Patrick, a three-time convicted criminal, and also their recent president was just-

KING: All right, but she says- Hold it-

Mr. JENTZSCH: Their recent president was just arrested-

KING: Heber, she said-

Mr. JENTZSCH: Their recent president just resigned.

KING: She said it was her parents. She didn't say Ted Patrick or anyone. She said her parents.

Mr. JENTZSCH: There was somebody else involved and I think- I have a- I don't know who it is, but I have a feeling it's your next guest. But I will tell you this. That activity is criminal. It's a hate group and that kind of stuff doesn't go in America because it takes away-

KING: Are you saying categorically that Scientologists do not take any action against people who speak out against them?

Mr. JENTZSCH: We've taken no action against people who've spoken out against us, except in the courts. And I'll tell you this. This particular charge- These people who are deprogrammed come on and they're pulled onto television later just like the Chinese used to do with their brainwashing tactics. They'd bring a person who's caved in, lost their religion, and that's their particular thing where the people now say, 'Oh, listen, you know, I no longer like the religion,' they hate the religion, et cetera. That's the exact phenomenon and I'm telling you-

KING: Heber, were members of the Church of Scientology convicted of Government infiltration?

Mr. JENTZSCH: You know, there were 11 members in the church at one time - about over 10 years ago. Those people committed crimes. We removed those people from office. They'll never hold an office in this church again. But with eight million members around the world, you know, that was 11 people.

KING: OK. You hold no-

Mr. JENTZSCH: Larry- Larry, one particular thing. Larry, do you read when somebody gets arrested that he's a Jew? Do you read that he's a Catholic? Just put the word 'Jew,' 'Catholic,' or something else in there and then you see how absolutely vicious this kind of attack on religion is.

KING: Unless they were 11 people from one temple who went out and committed a crime collectively - together - and then went back to the temple and shared the loot- I would call them 'the temple raiders,' maybe.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Yes, but if you had millions of members and 11 people did something like that out of millions of members and thousands and thousands of staff members, you'd say, 'I'm not going to paint the whole group that way,' and that is what I'm saying.

KING: That's right. That's correct. You have no personal animosity against Lisa?

Mr. JENTZSCH: I've never met this girl before, as far as I know. We're sitting right here next together. That's why this allegation just is absolutely totally insane.

KING: All right, we'll be joined by two others-

Mr. JENTZSCH: But you know-

KING: Hold it. Jerry Whitfield and Donald Sills, and we'll come back as well with more of Heber Jentzsch and Lisa Halverson. Billy Crystal later. This is Larry King Live. Don't go away.

JOHN TRAVOLTA: [May 1985] And I certainly believe in Scientology and the practices of and systems of- and I'm here to stand for what I believe in. It's as simple as that.

[Commercial break]

KING: Our guests are, in Los Angeles, Heber Jentzsch, President, Church of Scientology International; Lisa Halverson, a recent member - 15-year member - who recently quit; here in Washington, Jerry Whitfield, former Scientologist who now runs intervention groups designed to help people get out of the church; and a return visit - third visit to this program - for Donald Sills, President of the Coalition for Religious Freedom.

Jerry, why do you have to intervene to take people out? Why not just join or leave, as one wishes anything - any faith?

JERRY WHITFIELD, Former Scientologist: That would be very easy to do if this group did not use mind-control techniques - the same types of mind-control techniques that the Chinese communists use.

KING: For what purpose?

Mr. WHITFIELD: The purpose of keeping the people in the group- of continuing to get more and more money from people.

KING: How did you break away?

Mr. WHITFIELD: I walked away. I'm what they call a 'walkaway.'

KING: How were you able to do that?

Mr. WHITFIELD: I didn't have money to continue. I just didn't have the-

KING: So their mind control- They weren't interested in you because you didn't have money?

Mr. WHITFIELD: Primarily. I needed another $60,000 to continue and I didn't have that money.

KING: Why would you need that kind of money to be a member of a church?

Mr. WHITFIELD: Well, that's a good question. You need that money to give to Scientology. This young lady that was on here earlier - Ms. Halverson - said something like $250,000. What people don't-

KING: What did it pay for?

Mr. WHITFIELD: You pay for specific services, and services- The farther along you get, the more expensive they get. It's not unusual for a person to spend anywhere from $200,000 to $400,000 to get from the bottom to the top.

KING: When you start spending the money, you must be getting something out of it.

Mr. WHITFIELD: You are. You are getting something out of it and you feel euphoric, and that goes away. You can start coke and feel the same way, and that goes away also.

KING: Why do you-

Mr. JENTZSCH: Ask Jerry how much he gets for deprogramming.

KING: Hold on. Hold on one second. One second, Heber.

Mr. JENTZSCH: OK. Ask him how much he gets for deprogramming.

KING: Why did you get yourself involved in deprogramming?

I'll ask the questions, Heber. I do this for a living.

Mr. JENTZSCH: OK, great. [laughs] Go for it.

KING: Why did you start to do this?

Mr. WHITFIELD: People came to me and asked me to talk to them about Scientology and I said, 'I can't talk to people about Scientology this much.' I said, 'I just can't do it.' People were talking 15, 20, 40, 60 hours a week about Scientology and I said, 'I just can't do it.' And finally people said, 'I'll pay you if you'll talk about it,' so I said-

KING: So you go around to-?

Mr. WHITFIELD: So I talk to people about Scientology.

KING: And you charge individuals to remove them from-?

Mr. WHITFIELD: I don't remove people from Scientology. People have the right to see Scientology as it really exists.

KING: And you have the right to charge them.

Mr. WHITFIELD: And I have the right to say, 'Hey, look, I've got to pay my rent at the first of the month every month.'

KING: So how would you work a fee like that? I mean, like what? How does it work?

Mr. WHITFIELD: Well, you would have to ask-

KING: I've got a cousin in Scientology. I want you to talk to her so I hire you to talk to her?

Mr. WHITFIELD: Yes, you would.

KING: I see, and I pay you as I would any consultant fee-

Mr. WHITFIELD: You would.

KING: -for, like, an hour's services?

Mr. WHITFIELD: Right.

KING: OK. Donald, you're President of the Coalition for Religious Freedom. What do you make of all this?

Reverend DONALD SILLS, Coalition for Religious Freedom: It gets to be the point, Larry, where it's just absolutely humorous because of what's happened in these situations. I come from an old school. I'm a Baptist - been a Baptist preacher for 34 years. And I'm kind of hard pressed when I've got friends that are involved in churches and I find other people that come along and- And I've been involved with people where they've been kidnapped, they've been placed in vans, they've been taken away. They were called deprogrammers.' The new term today is 'exit counselor.' 'Intervention'? I think that was a word that was used. It's a new phrase.

KING: You don't like it?

Rev. SILLS: No, I don't like it. I don't like it. A combination of things. It's a vigilante group. Anybody that sets themselves up to take over somebody else's life is acting as a vigilante, and I don't care if it's a government or an individual or an organization-

KING: You're talking about the interventionists now?

Rev. SILLS: That's right, the deprogrammers.

KING: Hold it, Jerry. You're saying that the Church of Scientology has the right to be a church. People have a right to join it, pay $60,000, not pay $60,000, leave.

Rev. SILLS: That's absolutely right.

KING: What if you believed they were using mind power? What if you believed they were doing things to keep people against their wishes inside?

Rev. SILLS: When you deal with the phrases - for example, it came out in Time magazine - 'cult.' That very term- If you go into the dictionary, what is a 'cult'? A 'cult' is an individual that's committed himself to a life or a practice or a belief. Now, there's been a list of things that have been put together with this and there's a number of deprogrammers across the country - Ted Patrick, Steve Hassan, some others that have been even on your program. Jerry and I have never met before.

KING: Are you saying that you have nothing against Scientology, personally?

Rev. SILLS: I have no problem with Scientology. I don't believe in their philosophy, in their concepts as a theology. That's their business.

KING: So you're against intervention of any kind?

Rev. SILLS: That's right.

KING: Whether it was Sun Yung Moon-

Rev. SILLS: That's right.

KING: You're against people trying to stop people-

Rev. SILLS: Our position with the coalition is that it's the American defending the rights of Americans to believe as Americans want to be. Very simple. A person has the right to choose.

KING: Jerry?

Mr. WHITFIELD: Don works for an organization that has the same board members as the Scientology organization. Don gets paid by the Moonies and Don gets paid by Scientology.

Rev. SILLS: That's an interesting- Where do I get my money?

Mr. WHITFIELD: Well, you have-

Rev. SILLS: No, no, no. You made a statement. Please document that, Jerry, because that's heavy.

Mr. WHITFIELD: That is heavy.

Rev. SILLS: Yes, where do I get my money?

Mr. WHITFIELD: You'd have to show me your bank accounts and your checks to-

Rev. SILLS: I'll tell you right now-

KING: No, no, you made the charge.

Rev. SILLS: Yes.

KING: Are you saying that Scientologists-

Rev. SILLS: I receive no money from the Scientologists or from the Unification Church or from-

Mr. WHITFIELD: Never?

Rev. SILLS: No.

Mr. WHITFIELD: Never?

Rev. SILLS: I've received money from a lot of groups.

Mr. WHITFIELD: Never received money from-

Rev. SILLS: Not the issue. You're saying my salary comes from them now.

Mr. WHITFIELD: That's not what I said. I said you get paid-

Rev. SILLS: I don't receive my salary from them.

KING: You said members of the board- of your board of directors are Scientologists and members of the Unification Church.

Rev. SILLS: First of all, I receive no salary from the Coalition for Religious Freedom - none, whatsoever.

Mr. WHITFIELD: You've never received any money from any Scientologist or ever been-

Mr. JENTZSCH: No, but Jerry gets his money from kidnapping-

Rev. SILLS: I've never received-

Mr. JENTZSCH: Jerry gets his money from kidnapping-

Ms. HALVERSON: Oh, put a lid on it!

Rev. SILLS: I've never received any money from the Church of Scientology -

KING: Hold it, hold it, hold it.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Jerry gets his money from kidnapping-

Ms. HALVERSON: That's not true-

Mr. JENTZSCH: Hold on-

KING: Stop. Stop, stop, stop. Hold it, hold it-

Mr. JENTZSCH: No, I want to be able to respond.

KING: -with four people I can't control it if everybody talks. Well, let's start with Heber-

Mr. JENTZSCH: Can I respond?

KING: Yes. Heber.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Yes, because look, let's take a look at Jerry. He made a billion-dollar suit against the Church of Scientology - one billion. I didn't say 'million,' I said a billion dollars. And he said- He called it a class-action suit. He found eight people in that. You know what? They went to the court eight times and the judge finally said after- You know, they went six times, it was thrown out, and finally the judge said, you know, 'The court must conclude that there are no facts constituting fraud by them that can be truthfully alleged.' That is what Mister- That's what Jerry's all about - lots of money, pyramiding schemes. He came into Narconon because he was a drug dealer. He came in because he was absolutely having a tremendous problem. We took him off of drugs. We helped him. You know what? He had a better life than he'd ever had.

Mr. WHITFIELD: Not true-

KING: All right. Did you-

Mr. JENTZSCH: And now it's just sour grapes because he wants to have that back-

KING: All right, any church-

Mr. JENTZSCH: -and he hasn't got it.

KING: Heber, any church-

Mr. JENTZSCH: That's what it is.

KING: Any good church, if a member - I would assume - doesn't have money, continues to help that member.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Listen, we would have helped the guy, but he came in and he started committing acts which would make him uncapable [sic] to be a member and that's the problem with this guy, and now he wants to come back. I'll tell you what. He found something. He's like a little kid. He lost it and he wants it back.

And that's the same thing with Lisa - except, if anybody's brainwashed, this lady is. And I'd like to know from Jerry whether he was involved in her deprogramming. That's what I'd like to know.

KING: OK, did you-

Mr. JENTZSCH: And how much money did he get? How much money did he get?

KING: Were you involved with Lisa? You were not involved with Lisa? You don't know Lisa?

Mr. WHITFIELD: I've seen her on TV tonight.

KING: But that's the first time you've-

Mr. JENTZSCH: You've never met her?

KING: Never met her?

Mr. WHITFIELD: Right.

Mr. JENTZSCH: You affirm you've never met her?

KING: OK. OK, let me get a break, come back and include some phone calls, and then we'll meet Billy Crystal. Our guests are Heber Jentzsch - he's President of the Church of Scientology; Lisa Halverson, a former member; Jerry Whitfield, a former member who runs intervention groups designed to help people get out; and Donald Sills, President of the Coalition for Religious Freedom.

Tomorrow night, a major discussion on whether we're having too many parades after the Gulf war. We'll be right back.

[Commercial break]

KING: Before we go to some calls and meet Billy Crystal, Jerry, are you a vigilante?

Mr. WHITFIELD: No, I'm not a vigilante.

KING: Are you a member of any organized group that goes out to deprogram people?

Mr. WHITFIELD: No, I work for myself. I have my own business. People call me and ask me if I'll come and see them.

KING: OK. Boston, hello.

1st CALLER: [Boston, Massachusetts] Yes. Don Sills just called me - I'm Steve Hassan - a kidnapper and deprogrammer. I just wanted to state for your viewers that the Coalition for Religious Freedom was founded with $500,000 from the Moon organization. I, in fact, confronted him two years ago when I was on your show, Larry. You were on vacation that night.

And I do want to state that if people want to know the truth about Scientology there's an excellent book called A Piece of Blue Sky by a fellow named John Atack which Scientology has gone to try to stop for five years. And it went to the Supreme Court and is now out and people can have the objective research facts about this group.

KING: All right. Can you give us, caller- You'll help me a lot. Give me one salient fact about Scientology that they do that Heber can respond to. What's one- Give me one wrong thing they do.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Well, let me just respond-

KING: Hold it, Heber. Hold it. Hold it.

You've just told me the title of a book. That doesn't mean anything.

1st CALLER: The crucial- The two-

KING: Give me one thing, sir.

1st CALLER: The two crucial pieces that have been missing in the discussion so far is the issue of deception - and that is, I believe in religious freedom but people have to have information to make an informed choice-

KING: Give me an example.

1st CALLER: In Scientology many people get recruited through front organizations, like Sterling Management. I just met a dentist this week-

Mr. JENTZSCH: OK, he's said his point-

1st CALLER: -who was taken in-

KING: No, no, he didn't, Heber. Hold it, hold it, hold it. He was making a point-

Mr. JENTZSCH: No, he's saying front groups-

KING: Heber, please. Caller-

Mr. JENTZSCH: I'm trying to-

KING: Caller, give me one thing Scientology does-

Mr. JENTZSCH: Yes, one thing.

KING: -that's evil.

1st CALLER: What they do is hypnosis through their training routines. They teach people to shut down and become uncritical and passive and obedient which-

KING: All right, stop right there. Heber, do you use hypnosis to keep people in the organization and non-critical?

Mr. JENTZSCH: Absolutely not. The Cult Awareness Network rapes people because they say- They took a woman and raped her because they said she was a lesbian so this was therapy-

KING: Hold it. Don't tell me about them. Tell me about you. Do you hypnotize people-

Mr. JENTZSCH: I'll tell you about me-

KING: -in Scientology?

Mr. JENTZSCH: No, not at all.

KING: You do not use hypnosis? OK.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Listen, but let me just say-

KING: You're saying the caller is totally wrong?

Mr. JENTZSCH: -Steve Hassan makes a fortune off of kidnapping people. That's what he does and that's what Whitfield does.

KING: OK, Heber. Hold it, hold it, hold it-

Mr. JENTZSCH: They kidnap people.

KING: Hold it, hold it. Stop.

Mr. JENTZSCH: That's terrorist.

KING: The subject is Scientology -

Mr. WHITFIELD: I've never kidnapped anyone.

KING: The subject is Scientology -

Mr. JENTZSCH: That's terrorist.

KING: The subject is Scientology. He made a charge. I asked him to be specific. He said hypnosis to keep membership in. You say you do not use hypnosis.

Mr. JENTZSCH: We dehypnotize people, if anything, in life, and we can handle the problems of people who have been hypnotized.

KING: All right. Were you hypnotized when you were a member, Jerry?

Mr. WHITFIELD: I was. I didn't know it at the time.

KING: Wait a minute.

Mr. WHITFIELD: I thought I wasn't.

KING: What do you mean, you didn't know it?

Mr. WHITFIELD: Because a person can be hypnotized without knowing that it's hypnosis.

KING: How?

Mr. WHITFIELD: They can be put into a hypnotic trance without being told that that's what it is, and that's the thing about it is-

KING: Yes, but a great speaker can do that.

Mr. WHITFIELD: That's right.

KING: Hitler hypnotized a crowd, but they weren't hypnotized.

Mr. WHITFIELD: But they followed his suggestions.

KING: They were moved, they believed, they voted, they followed.

Mr. WHITFIELD: They followed his suggestions.

KING: But a political speaker could hypnotize a group. It's not a fair term to say it's mass hypnosis.

Mr. WHITFIELD: It's not- It's done one-on-one.

Mr. JENTZSCH: With the Army you do the same thing.

Mr. WHITFIELD: It's done on the one-on-one drills in Scientology, and I didn't know that until five years after I left Scientology. And it's deceptive and they deny it. Most of the people who deny it do not know what hypnosis is. They do not know what a trance state is.

KING: If they did that, would you give up your post?

Rev. SILLS: If it was documented that Scientologists or any group-

KING: If it was documented that Scientologists- any group used-

Rev. SILLS: -was involved in hypnosis, I would go after them myself.

KING: OK.

Mr. WHITFIELD: Don, we should talk.

KING: Lancaster, hello.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Yes, and I'll go after the hypnotists in the Cult Awareness Network. They are the hypnotists in life, Larry. Look, they're making a lot of money doing this stuff-

KING: Lisa, were you hypnotized?

Ms. HALVERSON: Yes.

Mr. JENTZSCH: -a lot of money.

KING: Lisa?

Ms. HALVERSON: Absolutely-

Mr. JENTZSCH: A lot of money.

Ms. HALVERSON: Absolutely. The techniques of counseling and training in Scientology do have an hypnotic effect. L. Ron Hubbard was a master hypnotist. Most Scientologists haven't a clue that that's what's really going on.

Mr. JENTZSCH: So you're hypnotized now?

Ms. HALVERSON: I am not hypnotized now.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Good.

Rev. SILLS: Larry, one of the things that seems to come across to me with some of the charges in the people that I've met, you'd almost get the idea that these people had no mind at all, they had no control over their own selves. And here's a girl at 37 years of age- I don't- Jerry, how old were you when you came out of this particular church?

Mr. WHITFIELD: Forty- 39, 40.

Rev. SILLS: OK. Man, when you get to that point in your life it would appear that you'd have some control over your life.

Mr. JENTZSCH: Absolutely.

Rev. SILLS: And to be- to go-

KING: Let me get a call from Lancaster. Hello.

Rev. SILLS: I have a problem understanding that.

2nd CALLER: [Lancaster, Pennsylvania] Good evening, Larry.

KING: Hi.

2nd CALLER: I'd like to share an experience that I had with the Scientologists in 1978. They were trying to recruit people. I was in college and I was walking past a pay phone and it rang. I answered it. A woman was on the phone and she was very friendly. She said, 'Would you like to go to a party?' and I said, 'Sure.' And she told me where the party was.

I went to the neighborhood. It was a very nice neighborhood. They, obviously, were renting a nice house. There were about five to seven people sitting there. They took us into a room. I don't know who the other people were - never met them before. And they started talking about how we could attain higher levels of some kind of communication or consciousness. This happened in 1978, as I say, so I'm not real clear on it. But I started asking a lot of questions and immediately they took me out of the room - one person - sat me down in a small office, asked a couple of questions. I don't remember what they were. And then I realized, 'Something's strange here,' and I left. And I just wanted to-

KING: All right, there's only one flaw in that story, sir. How did they know you were walking by the phone?

Mr. JENTZSCH: Yes, exactly.

2nd CALLER: Sure, but it happened. I swear.

KING: I'm not denying it. It's just, really, that's- They must be pretty powerful.

Mr. JENTZSCH: That's ridiculous.

KING: We will do a lot more on this, I guarantee, and I thank you all. Heber Jentzsch, Lisa Halverson, Jerry Whitfield, Donald Sills.

[Rest with Billy Crystal]


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