From: Robert S. Minton <bob@minton.org>
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Subject: Liebreich v CoS, Schaeffer Hearing re Prince, Jesse testifies 2/2
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158
1
2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 2
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14 PROCEEDINGS: Motions.
15 DATE: November 7, 2001.
16 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding
St. Petersburg, Florida.
17
BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer
18 Circuit Judge.
19 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR,
Notary Public,
20 State of Florida at large.
21
22
23
24
25

159
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5 MR. KENDRICK MOXON and
MS. HELENA K. KOBRIN
6 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
7 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
8 Organization.
9 MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
10 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525
11 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG
740 Broadway, Fifth Floor
14 New York, New York 10003
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
15 Organization.
16 MR. RONALD P. HANES
TROMBLEY & HANES
17 707 North Franklin Street
10th Floor
18 Tampa, FL 33601
Attorney for Janis Johnson
19
ALSO PRESENT:
20
Michael G. Garko, PhD
21 Mr. Allan Cartwright
Ms. Lara Cartwright
22 Ms. Sarah Heller
Mr. Ben Shaw
23 Mr. Peter Mansell
Ms. Stephanie Skjelset
24
25

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161
1
2 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
3 PAGE LINE
4 Defendant's Motion to Strike 162 6
Recess 215 13
5 JESSE PRINCE 238 10
DIRECT Mr. Dandar 241 1
6 CROSS Mr. Moxon 260 7
EXAMINATION The Court 299 22
7 REDIRECT Mr. Dandar 303 6
8
Reporter's Certificate 341 1
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162
1 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon, let's go forward on your
2 motion to strike Mr. Prince as an expert.
3 This transcript belongs to someone, this
4 Fabrizio? I believe it was yours, Mr. Dandar.
5 You may proceed.
6 MR. MOXON: Thank you, your Honor.
7 Florida law requires that the trial court be
8 the arbiter of whether or not an expert is permitted
9 to testify. That's Florida Supreme Court case
10 Ramirez versus State, 651 So2d at 1164. Also a very
11 recent court of appeals case, Poulin versus
12 Flemming, 782 So2d 452.
13 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm sorry. Could I just
14 ask a question before we continue?
15 THE COURT: Sure.
16 MR. DANDAR: If Mr. Prince has refused to be my
17 expert witness and has withdrawn, why are we doing
18 this motion?
19 THE COURT: Because if in fact he never could
20 have been an expert to begin with, then whether he's
21 refused because of some wrongdoing or otherwise
22 would be irrelevant. Before his refusal to be a
23 witness based on somebody else's action becomes
24 relevant, there needs to be some initial
25 determination that he ever could have been a

163
1 witness.
2 Or at least that's part of my thinking process,
3 and that's why we're going through it.
4 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
5 MR. MOXON: These cases refer to the trial
6 court as the, quote, gatekeeper. A number of cases
7 like this.
8 Says: "The trial court is the gatekeeper of
9 when an expert's permitted to testify and when it's
10 not." So of course, this is a determination that's
11 made by the trial court. And if the court finds
12 that the testimony of an expert witness wouldn't
13 assist the jury in determining a fact or issue, then
14 the expert is simply not qualified as matter of law
15 to give his opinion or infect the jury with improper
16 or prejudicial opinions, and he has to be excluded.
17 There are four basic reasons -- there's
18 actually a fifth that just arose last week --
19 okay -- five reasons why Mr. Prince doesn't qualify
20 and can't ever -- could never testify as a witness,
21 as an expert witness.
22 The first is -- and I'll just summarize these
23 briefly and then I'll give you the details.
24 The first is, he's actually a paid fact
25 witness. By law, the testimony of a compensated

164
1 fact witness is tainted and has to be excluded.
2 Now, the evidence in this case is that
3 plaintiff's counsel and Robert Minton have paid
4 Prince at least $250,000 for statements of fact.
5 All of his affidavits are -- at the top, they say,
6 "These are statements of fact," and that, "If I'm
7 called upon to testify thereto, I could do so
8 competently." At the end of some of them, he offers
9 some opinion, which is just sheer speculation. But
10 primarily they're all fact, and they're admitted at
11 the outset of each one of these declarations.
12 Secondly, the issue that we addressed the most
13 earlier today is that Mr. Prince's hatred for
14 Scientology and Scientologists is so extreme as to
15 require his disqualification due to his bias. He's
16 employed by Minton and LMT, dedicated to overthrow
17 the ecclesiastical leadership, and he engaged in the
18 kind of profane demonstrations you've seen on the
19 videos: Harasses witnesses, harasses church staff
20 and parishioners participating in their religion,
21 yelling obscenities and religious slurs at them; has
22 threatened violence to church staff. And never, in
23 the wildest stretch of an imagination, could he be
24 considered an objective expert.
25 Third reason is, he doesn't qualify as a bona

165
1 fide expert witness. He's never previously been
2 admitted as an expert. He's been paid a lot of
3 money by Mr. Minton, by the attorneys hired by
4 Mr. Minton, in several different actions. But his
5 first -- his former position of responsibility in
6 the church ended 14 years ago when he violated core
7 ethical principals of the religion; their
8 scriptures, and attempted to oust some other church
9 leaders.
10 So 14 years, he was removed from any position
11 of responsibility. Now he only offers really
12 speculative conclusions and the little bit of
13 opinion he does give as to what church staff were
14 really thinking or what they would have done or
15 might have done or should have done with respect to
16 Lisa McPherson. And these are not legitimate expert
17 issues, because he's just speculating as to, "I
18 think this is what they were thinking when this
19 happened; I think this is what David Miscavige was
20 thinking; and this is what I think other
21 ecclesiastical leaders of the church were thinking
22 when Lisa McPherson was dying."
23 There's no evidence they even knew about it.
24 They didn't. But nevertheless, that's what's been
25 offered by Mr. Dandar.

166
1 The fourth issue is he's executed binding
2 confidentiality agreements that he's been induced by
3 both Mr. Dandar and Mr. Minton to breach, but he's
4 bound by contracts he signed some years ago that
5 would bar him from testifying and breaking this
6 contract.
7 The last reason is that he's now pled the Fifth
8 as to basic questions that could be asked of an
9 expert regarding his qualifications. Remember, he's
10 being proffered here as a religious expert, so -- a
11 religious expert. And obviously, a matter of
12 ethics, too, and his knowledge of religion and
13 ethics. And so his refusal to testify on Fifth
14 Amendment grounds as to a lifetime of crime and drug
15 abuse would disqualify himself. And certainly, his
16 assertion of the Fifth Amendment as to how much
17 money he's been paid by Mr. Minton during the time
18 that he's been working for Mr. Dandar. And he's
19 even -- now asserted the Fifth Amendment as to any
20 money given to him by Mr. Dandar, whether he's
21 deposited it into accounts.
22 I've never heard of an expert witness who's
23 pled the Fifth when you say, "How much money have
24 you been paid?" So he can't testify for that reason
25 either.

167
1 So the details on this, the first issue is,
2 he's a paid fact witness. As you know from other
3 papers, this case has been funded by Robert Minton.
4 The testimony and the documentation that we've
5 acquired thus far -- and we haven't gotten it all --
6 say Mr. Minton has given Mr. Dandar $1.3 million for
7 this case. Obviously, far more than any experts
8 could ever need, no matter how many experts he
9 hired. And some of these funds have been used to
10 pay Mr. Prince also.
11 But for several years, Mr. Minton's funds
12 represented Mr. Prince's sole source of income. And
13 that's important, because each one of the several
14 declarations that he's filed in other cases and in
15 this case have basically these assertions of fact.
16 And they're just not expert opinions; they're fact.
17 The first paragraph of the affidavit he filed
18 in this case, the first one, says, quote, This
19 declaration is of my own personal knowledge, and if
20 called upon to testify to the facts herein, I could
21 and would be competently able to testify thereto.
22 That was the affidavit he first filed in August of
23 1999.
24 And Mr. Prince also acknowledged his role in
25 working for Mr. Dandar as a fact witness, when he

168
1 was asked in the deposition what -- why he never
2 gave any bills to Mr. Dandar. He said, "I never
3 give him any bills. You know, he doesn't need bills
4 from me. He just trusts me." And he says, quote,
5 You know, we talked about this earlier, and we have
6 a relationship based on trust, because he
7 appreciates the work that I do. I work very
8 diligently to provide facts as opposed to opinion
9 and things like that, and I think he respects my
10 work.
11 As I stated, his affidavits are virtually all
12 facts. In fact, the first lengthy declaration filed
13 in this case, the first section of it was his
14 history on Scientology, where he lays out his
15 history in Scientology, which was two decades ago,
16 primarily. Remember, he left the church altogether
17 in 1992.
18 And then he goes into alleged practices; you
19 know, his version of what he allegedly learned in
20 the Church; you know, factual issues of what he says
21 the practices are and his alleged experience with
22 isolation.
23 Remember this isolation issue with respect to
24 Ms. McPherson? He's claiming that he has some
25 knowledge of other times when other people were in,

169
1 quote, isolation, and he wants to testify about
2 those other events. Again, that's as a fact
3 witness.
4 And he's admitted that he has no knowledge
5 concerning Lisa McPherson herself, but again wants
6 to testify how the church must have treated her and
7 what they must have thought, must have instructed
8 Flag staff what the ecclesiastical leaders must have
9 done.
10 So his MO is really the same in other cases,
11 where he has provided just factual testimony.
12 The first case where he was hired, he was
13 hired, again, for Robert Minton in the case of
14 Religious Technology Center versus FACTNet, which
15 was a copyright case in Colorado.
16 FACTNet was an organization that Mr. Minton
17 essentially bought. He put a lot of money into it.
18 It was an anti-Scientology database that, you know,
19 some attorneys used. And he filed a fact
20 declaration in July of 1998. Incidentally, 13
21 paragraphs of that was -- of that declaration were
22 repeated verbatim as factual statements in the
23 declaration he filed in this case. But in that,
24 there was no pretense he was an expert ever. It was
25 just factual.

170
1 So has a declaration filed in FACTNet, 1998,
2 that's facts. Said, "I'm a fact witness."
3 Then here, in the year 1999, he files the same
4 declaration that says, "Now I'm an expert." But he
5 says the same things.
6 Again, it was paid by Mr. Minton.
7 And he filed another declaration for
8 Mr. Minton's attorney, Daniel Leipold, in another
9 case, where again he says, "This declaration's of my
10 own personal knowledge." And I've attached all
11 these things with it. Every single thing I'm
12 telling is one of the exhibits appended to my motion
13 which is the appendix front of you.
14 Now, he's been compensated a great deal of
15 money for these fact declarations. A great deal.
16 Some of the evidence that we have is Mr. Minton
17 purchased for him a $23,000 SUV; he received $5,000
18 in cash from Mr. Minton for his expenses for a
19 vacation; he became a FACTNet employee; another
20 $2,000 for Mr. Minton -- that was given to him the
21 day before his deposition in the FACTNet case. Then
22 he was given a salary, which he couldn't remember,
23 but he said it was between 3- and $4,000 a month,
24 between September, '98 and February of '99, by
25 Mr. Minton and FACTNet. He was paid another $7,000

171
1 by Mr. Minton to go Europe during this time, and he
2 was paid another $12,000 by Minton to move from
3 Chicago to Colorado at this time. And then,
4 starting June, '99, according to his testimony and
5 Mr. Dandar, he began receiving $5,000 a month from
6 Mr. Dandar.
7 Now, this is obviously an unusual circumstance,
8 too, where you have someone who's an alleged expert
9 witness, put him on salary.
10 Now, Mr. Minton has asserted from time to time,
11 "Well, yeah. But he's really my consultant, so I'm
12 really paying him as a consultant. He's really an
13 expert." Flips back and forth. You don't have
14 someone who's a, quote, consultant expert, who's
15 also a testifying expert. It's either one or the
16 other.
17 But then, in the beginning of '92, when
18 Mr. Minton gives Prince $50,000, which he apparently
19 uses to buy a house -- I don't know what else he
20 does with it -- and at that time he flips over to
21 LMT. And now he's over at LMT, working at LMT, for
22 the identical salary, being paid $5,000 a month by
23 Dandar, and then immediately flips over; now being
24 paid $5,000 a month from LMT, funded from the same
25 sources.

172
1 Mr. Minton's the funding source for -- both for
2 Mr. Dandar and for LMT.
3 And so we know that he's received at least
4 $35,000 directly from Mr. Dandar, and actually in
5 excess of $100,000, now, from LMT, and he got a
6 house. Total, to be added up, is over $250,000.
7 By the way, we also know Mr. Minton paid for
8 the defense in his marijuana case. And they
9 admitted that it was $45,000 they paid to
10 Mr. DeVlaming to defend him in his marijuana case,
11 obviously, 'cause it was important for him to be a
12 witness in this case.
13 Now, the Florida law prohibits payments to fact
14 witnesses and requires disqualification. In --
15 Florida Rule of Professional Conduct 4-3.4 states,
16 "A lawyer shall not fabricate evidence, counsel or
17 assist a witness to testify falsely or offer an
18 inducement to a witness." This rule has been used
19 by courts to require the exclusion of paid
20 witnesses.
21 A case that we've cited in our papers, Golden
22 Door Jewelry Creations versus Lloyd's
23 Underwriters -- this is a Southern District of
24 Florida case. It's a federal case, which bases its
25 findings upon Florida law. Party and counsel were

173
1 sanctioned for payments made to witnesses and
2 required the exclusion of all evidence tainted by
3 those payments to the witness. And the decision was
4 based on this rule I just quoted, 4-3.4, and stated,
5 "Justice may not be bought or sold. It is clear
6 that providing compensation for testimony violates
7 the very essence of the integrity of the judicial
8 system."
9 I'm quoting the Florida Supreme Court case,
10 Florida Bar versus Jackson, 490 So2d 935.
11 And the Golden Door case held in part, "The
12 common law rule is that it is improper to pay a
13 witness any fee for testifying." I'm quoting the
14 commentary to rule 4-3.4.
15 This is actually an identical scenario to
16 another case, another federal case here in Tampa,
17 the case of RentClub versus TransAmerica Rental
18 Finance, 811 FdSp 651, Judge Kovakevich, where the
19 court found the acts of counsel in paying a witness
20 who's allegedly, you know, a consultant, fact
21 witness, consultant, et cetera, warranted
22 disqualification, both the witness and the counsel.
23 And I'll address that further.
24 But as a compensated fact witness, his
25 testimony simply has to be excluded.

174
1 The second reason is -- goes to this bias
2 issue. Mr. Prince had a -- did have a position of
3 responsibility in the church prior to 1987. It
4 wasn't, as Mr. Dandar claims, number two. That's
5 just -- that's just not true. Absolutely not true.
6 He was -- he was one of the -- of a level -- the
7 second level in one part of the church out in
8 California.
9 But he was removed in 1987 for his ethical
10 shortcomings. And as I -- as I mentioned to you
11 earlier, he left the church, he was -- between '87
12 and '92, he was a janitor and a gardener, and he
13 made copies of tapes, copies of video and audio
14 tapes of religious lectures that were sent out to
15 other churches from California. But that's all he
16 did the last five years he was --
17 MR. DANDAR: Excuse me, your Honor. Objection.
18 Is there evidence to this or is it just Mr. Moxon
19 talking? I mean, I don't -- where's the evidence to
20 all the things that he's been saying?
21 MR. MOXON: It's all in my motion.
22 THE COURT: I guess he's saying it's all in
23 these attachments.
24 MR. MOXON: I can give you each exhibit as I go
25 along.

175
1 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'd certainly like to see
2 the evidence, because --
3 MR. MOXON: This is what I filed last week. It
4 was filed in June. We had a lengthy argument on
5 this in June. And if you'll look at Exhibits 14
6 through 19 of our motion -- not in this one, but in
7 the motion we filed earlier -- gives affidavits of
8 what he was doing; that he was a janitor at that
9 time.
10 MR. DANDAR: See, I'm here on the current
11 motion, and there's two transcripts of hearings
12 attached. And he just keeps talking and talking of
13 all these things. And there's no evidence.
14 THE COURT: Well, I think what he's saying is
15 that in his current motion, he has said that he had
16 previously moved to exclude him as an expert, to
17 strike him as an expert, and Judge Quesada said it
18 was bad timing; we'd wait and have it heard later.
19 So what he's done is he's attached that motion and
20 said that all the attachments to that motion are
21 still valid. He just didn't want to redo the whole
22 thing.
23 MR. DANDAR: I think Judge Quesada said it was
24 a jury question; let the jury decide, when the trial
25 court -- during a trial, based upon the cross

176
1 examination of the witness.
2 MR. MOXON: That's not what Judge Quesada said.
3 In any event, the affidavits I'm referring to
4 start in the response to Mr. Dandar's sanction
5 motion, with 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, as to what
6 his -- his position was, his last five years. He
7 was a janitor and he was engaged in this violent
8 activity. That's what those refer to.
9 In any event, he left the church in '92, and he
10 got this job selling -- and we discussed somewhat
11 the problems he had in the company. He went into a
12 company where he was assisted by the church to get a
13 job with another Scientologist, but he got into all
14 kinds of ethical dilemmas there, with a harassment
15 of female staff, taking drugs, smoking, smoking
16 marijuana, giving drugs to other staff, encouraging
17 other staff to -- to use drugs. And it's a pretty
18 horrific write-up. His write-up is actually
19 attached to our papers we filed earlier.
20 And he's asserted the Fifth Amendment as to all
21 those matters.
22 And this write-up is Exhibit 20 of our
23 opposition to the sanctions motion, which talks
24 about all of his -- his shortcomings with respect to
25 drugs and other matters; drugs and theft.

177
1 But that just leads us up to the present, your
2 Honor; the present being -- I mean the time when he
3 started becoming an expert witness.
4 And as I had mentioned earlier, the first time
5 he testified, the very first deposition he gave,
6 before he started getting educated on what he was
7 supposed to say, he said, you know, "What I'm doing
8 here is I'm being paid by FACTNet. I'm being paid
9 to help them out on this case, and whatever I can
10 do. All my living expenses."
11 And then -- I'll repeat this for this record.
12 "So --" he's asked this question by counsel: "So
13 let's see if I've got this straight, now. You
14 reached an agreement." This agreement was with
15 Stacy Brooks, by the way, Mr. Dandar's other, you
16 know, consultant and expert, and who also worked for
17 Mr. Minton at the time.
18 "You reached an agreement with Ms. Brooks, as
19 long as you continue to cooperate and assist in this
20 case, you will be paid all your expenses, including
21 walking-around money. Have I got that right?"
22 Answer by Mr. Prince: "Not quite, sir, but you
23 nearly did. And I can clarify it if you like. You
24 went wrong in limiting it to this case. Because
25 there's other cases that are going on against

178
1 Scientology that I might be able to help in as well.
2 There's other activities that are projected to do
3 beyond working on this case." And then he said the
4 purpose of his testimony was to get rid of
5 Scientology.
6 "Question: If I wanted to offer you money to
7 testify, no matter how much money it was -- if I
8 offered you a million dollars, I couldn't buy your
9 testimony, right?"
10 He said, "Well, you know, there's a possibility
11 you could, if you're doing something to get rid of
12 Scientology and other cults. Maybe you could entice
13 me that way."
14 That's at Exhibit 7 of the motion attached.
15 Now, there's a great deal of evidence of
16 Mr. Prince's bias in our motion, some of which I
17 played for you earlier this morning. But all of it
18 goes to this court's exercise of its gatekeeper
19 function to keep out an improper witness, an
20 unqualified witness.
21 And now, objections to -- I know Mr. Dandar
22 objected before and said, "Well, this all goes to
23 the weight. Just let the jury decide this." But
24 that's not the test.
25 On an issue like this regarding bias and

179
1 qualifications, do not go to the weight of the
2 testimony but go to its admissibility. My citation
3 for that statement is the case of Krohne versus
4 Orlando Farming. And that's 102 So2d 399. That's a
5 Second DCA case.
6 And another one, it cites -- and that case
7 cites a U.S. Supreme Court case, Turner versus
8 American Security. Cite for that is 29 Supreme
9 Court 420.
10 And cited there, the Krohne case, quote, The
11 trial court has, in the first instance, a
12 responsibility of allowing or disallowing the
13 testimony of an expert, and he also has the
14 responsibility present to determine not only the
15 qualifications but also as to the range of subjects
16 regarding which he can testify.
17 Another case I'd like to cite to you for this
18 general issue is In Re: Air Crash Disaster; it's
19 737 FdSp 427, affirmed by the Sixth Circuit -- which
20 is -- which is very interesting; the facts are
21 interesting, are very similar to this case -- where
22 it was stated that a proposed expert manifested such
23 bias that his opinion was insufficiently reliable to
24 permit him to go before the jury as a dispassionate
25 expert. Because the plaintiff attempted to use the

180
1 president of the National Right to Life Committee as
2 an expert on whether an unborn fetus is viable.
3 You see the analogy here. We've got the
4 vice-president of the Lisa McPherson Trust, whose
5 purpose is to, quote, expose Scientology and do away
6 with the ecclesiastical management of the church;
7 that person who's made all the statements you've
8 heard. He is the one being promoted as the expert.
9 And obviously, he's got -- he's got another dog in
10 this fight. It's not as a neutral expert.
11 And the court held -- a very significant phrase
12 here in respect to Mr. Prince -- that court held,
13 "Where an expert becomes an advocate for a cause, he
14 therefore departs from the acts of an objective
15 expert, and any relating testimony would be unfairly
16 prejudicial and misleading. It appears to this
17 court that this witness is an ardent supporter and
18 leader of the Right to Life movement, and as such,
19 his opinion regarding the viability of a fetus
20 cannot be accepted as objective." That's at 737
21 FdSp at 430. And of course, he was stricken.
22 THE COURT: Let me see those cases, please.
23 MR. MOXON: I don't have the cases here with
24 me, your Honor.
25 MR. HERTZBERG: I have it in connection with

181
1 the Whitfield motion.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. DANDAR: The plaintiff would like to see
4 these cases too, because they are not relied upon in
5 the motion.
6 THE COURT: Yeah, they are.
7 MR. MOXON: Yes, they are. They're quoted in
8 my motion.
9 THE COURT: Look at page 6.
10 MR. DANDAR: Sorry, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Or at least I see In Re: Air Crash
12 Disaster.
13 MR. DANDAR: Right. I don't see Krohne or
14 Turner.
15 MR. MOXON: Yeah. They're in my motion,
16 attached.
17 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, the Air Crash
18 Disaster case is attached as Exhibit L to the filing
19 we made, notice of filing with exhibits in the case
20 in opposition to the motion to reinstate Hana
21 Whitfield. And we can get a loose copy for you as
22 well.
23 MR. MOXON: These cases were also cited and
24 served on Mr. Dandar twice, once back in June and
25 once last week. They're at page 13 of the motion to

182
1 disqualify Mr. Prince in the appendix. He's had
2 them for six months.
3 MR. DANDAR: That motion was withdrawn. I'm
4 relying on the current motion, which doesn't cite
5 these cases. So this is an unfair advantage.
6 THE COURT: Okay. I still --
7 Where is the Krohne case cited in your motion?
8 MR. MOXON: Krohne case is -- if you'll look at
9 the appendix, which is our main motion, page 13,
10 that whole citation there is from Krohne.
11 THE COURT: Oh, I see.
12 MR. MOXON: Now, obviously, I didn't refile
13 this whole thing as my motion. I gave you a
14 summary.
15 My motion to disqualify Mr. Prince initially
16 was because Mr. Dandar has had this habit of saying
17 he's withdrawing witnesses. A number of times, when
18 we've tried to get the deposition of a witness for
19 which he said is an expert or a fact witness -- it
20 happened to Hana Whitfield; it happened to Stacy
21 Brooks; it happened with two other people. "I'm not
22 going to use them anymore. You can't take their
23 deposition."
24 So I asked Mr. Dandar just last week, "Well,
25 look, you claim now you've withdrawn Jesse Prince.

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1 I don't -- you know, I don't buy your reasons. I'm
2 not going to argue with you about that now, but
3 stipulate that he's out of here and I won't have to
4 file a motion to strike him. Because I don't
5 believe you. You know, I've been fooled enough by
6 your reneging on these assertions. Sign a
7 stipulation saying he's out of here." And
8 Mr. Dandar refused. That's why I filed this motion.
9 At any rate, that's why I attached the entirety
10 of my prior motion to disqualify, because it
11 demonstrates why Mr. Prince really isn't -- the real
12 reason why he's not here is because he just doesn't
13 qualify under any stretch of the imagination.
14 I don't know if there's any dispute that
15 Mr. Prince is an advocate for a cause, based on what
16 you've already seen, but I'll cite to you just a
17 couple of things that I made some brief reference to
18 this morning.
19 THE COURT: Let me ask you a question.
20 Something just entered my mind when I realized that
21 counsel was going to object to the testimony of
22 Ms. Whitfield. Is that her name? Hana Whitfield?
23 MR. MOXON: Right.
24 THE COURT: Who would be able to testify
25 regarding ecclesiastical matters, church matters, or

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1 PC matters, that had not been either now currently
2 in Scientology or left Scientology and no longer a
3 Scientologist?
4 MR. MOXON: Well, there's -- if that became an
5 issue --
6 THE COURT: Well, obviously it is. They
7 want -- they're going to want to use an expert --
8 MR. MOXON: Okay.
9 THE COURT: -- to explain certain things,
10 perhaps. Maybe they won't. But if they do want to
11 use an expert, where would you find one that either
12 wasn't now a Scientologist or wasn't -- had not been
13 a Scientologist and now was no longer one?
14 MR. MOXON: Well, we, for example, had filed
15 a -- affidavits of actual religious experts, actual
16 religious scholars; a fellow named Frank Flynn, who
17 is a PhD, you know, from Harvard University. And
18 he's -- he was actually somebody who's neutral --
19 who was hired and who's neutral, that said these are
20 the basics, precepts, from a scholarly view, of the
21 Scientology religion.
22 But you've raised a very interesting point,
23 which is not so simple to answer. Because there's
24 some very serious constitutional issues which we
25 will raise, and which I haven't really done here.

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1 But it's our position -- and we will -- we'll
2 brief this if this comes up and they really try to
3 inject religious belief and doctrine -- is that they
4 can't. They have to, as a matter of Supreme Court
5 authority, rely on the actual ecclesiastical leaders
6 of the present religion to assert what the religious
7 beliefs are. They can't take an apostate who's left
8 the church long ago in disgrace, was thrown out, and
9 say, "I know better than the ecclesiastical leaders
10 of the church what your religion is."
11 There have been a number of Supreme Court
12 decisions which have found that you can't do that.
13 No court may sit in that kind of a judgment and have
14 an apostate and a present member and them arguing
15 about what the real beliefs of the religion are.
16 THE COURT: Let me ask you another question,
17 then.
18 Let's assume, during the course of the trial,
19 that because the allegation or the -- I guess the
20 proposition of the church is that this all occurred
21 during an introspection rundown, and you don't
22 figure the jury's going to understand that, and so
23 you want to put a witness up to explain what that is
24 and how it works or something like that.
25 Is what you're suggesting, is that is not an

186
1 expert witness; that's a fact witness?
2 MR. MOXON: That's right.
3 THE COURT: So if that's the case, then you're
4 suggesting that any witness Mr. Dandar would call to
5 say, "Well, that's not accurate; this is what it
6 is," would also be a fact witness.
7 MR. MOXON: Well, there's two different issues.
8 The way you first framed the question is, that
9 she was having an introspection rundown. Now, if
10 Mr. Dandar wants to put on some evidence of saying,
11 "We don't think she was doing introspection rundown;
12 we think she was doing something else," he can't put
13 on evidence of saying, "Well, this is our
14 interpretation of what an introspection rundown
15 really is." That's only up to the church and solely
16 up to the church of what an introspection rundown
17 is.
18 THE COURT: Well -- that can't be true.
19 Because if that were true, you could just claim
20 anything you want, and be full of lies, and nobody
21 could ever contest it. So that is not true.
22 If you put up somebody to say something that is
23 obviously a lie and he has somebody that's going to
24 come up and say that is a lie, I'm not going to
25 entertain argument from you saying, "Well, they

187
1 can't do that." Because they can. We're going to
2 test -- we may or may not test some of this in
3 court. So we'll address those constitutional issues
4 if we have to, and when we have to.
5 But what I'm suggesting is -- is that you may
6 find yourself wanting to call someone that you might
7 think was a fact witness, that they might claim is a
8 expert witness, and they're going to say they're
9 biased also. So I mean, just --
10 MR. MOXON: They may do that, yeah. That
11 may -- they may do that.
12 THE COURT: Just because someone may have a
13 bias -- in other words -- I don't want you to
14 misunderstand where I'm coming from here.
15 They're -- all expert witnesses are, to some extent,
16 biased. They're biased because they have done what
17 experts do. Maybe they've conducted tests; they
18 have a belief that A plus B equals C based on their
19 expertise. And they're biased. They're biased.
20 That's their belief, you know, and they're going to
21 testify to that, and they believe that. So to some
22 extent, they're always going to be biased witnesses
23 when you're expert witnesses.
24 I think the distinction is, is in somebody
25 who's so extraordinarily biased -- for example, the

188
1 definition or the suggestion that you made is that
2 to call an expert to assist a jury, which is what an
3 expert's supposed to do, that -- that has made the
4 kinds of statements, say, Mr. Prince has, and who
5 has basically said under oath that he's out to
6 destroy Scientology, it would seem to me, is beyond
7 just a natural bias that an expert has.
8 So I'm not sure we're just talking about just a
9 little bias here. Because both sides are going to
10 have a problem with that, because I said the only
11 person who could ever know about Scientology --
12 well, maybe not. There may be experts that would
13 have read enough or know enough, without ever having
14 been a member -- to be able to testify as an expert.
15 But there's going to be a lot of folks that could
16 qualify, perhaps, who are either in the church or
17 were in the church.
18 MR. MOXON: Well, I see what you're saying.
19 And maybe we're --
20 THE COURT: And I'm saying -- well, are they
21 going to be called as expert witnesses or are they
22 going to be called as fact witnesses? And I'm not
23 real sure. But you know, I always think of an
24 expert witness as somebody that's going to assist
25 the jury in understanding something the jury doesn't

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1 really know much about.
2 MR. MOXON: Yeah.
3 THE COURT: They can lend some assistance to
4 the jury. A fact witness is usually somebody that
5 knows something about the case.
6 So I can see where they -- it might be argued
7 in a case such as this; but this is not very common
8 knowledge to anyone, that perhaps both arguments
9 could be made.
10 So --
11 MR. MOXON: That's an interesting issue. I
12 don't know that we need to get to it today. And
13 I --
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. MOXON: It's like saying how high is high.
16 You know, it's -- something is high; it could be two
17 feet high or it could be a mile high. And the kind
18 of bias we're talking about here is a mile high.
19 THE COURT: Extraordinary bias, you're saying.
20 MR. MOXON: Extraordinary bias.
21 And as the cases say, if he's an advocate for a
22 cause, that's different, and it requires his
23 disqualification.
24 For example, his posting on the Internet,
25 saying, at the time that he got hired by Mr. Dandar,

190
1 he's " -- been executing several confidential
2 projects to quicken the final solution for the
3 Scientology cult problem. At this point, there's
4 nothing that can be done to stop the wheels from
5 turning. Soon all will appreciate what is being
6 done."
7 THE COURT: I never -- I saw that. What I
8 don't know what that means, "quicken the final
9 solution."
10 MR. MOXON: There's an obvious --
11 THE COURT: It's not so obvious or I would have
12 seen it.
13 MR. MOXON: I mean, the final solution to --
14 the final solution, unfortunately, is a phraseology
15 that was used back in the days of World War II and
16 what the Nazis were planning. And that's the,
17 quote, final solution, as applied to a religion.
18 Final solution to get rid of Scientology is to get
19 rid of it.
20 THE COURT: Get rid of the people or get rid of
21 the --
22 MR. MOXON: Well --
23 THE COURT: I just never heard -- final
24 solution is a term --
25 MR. MOXON: Oh, you never heard that. There's

191
1 this, quote, final solution conference, of the head
2 Nazis. The final solution conference is what then
3 resulted in the concentration camps.
4 THE COURT: The final solution was to execute
5 the Jews, I suppose.
6 MR. MOXON: That's right. Get rid of them.
7 But that's the historical perspective.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. MOXON: And as I indicated earlier today,
10 too, you know, Prince testified that in 1997 he
11 threatened the ecclesiastical leader with guns.
12 He's in the habit of picketing --
13 Oh, there's another issue here, too, with
14 respect to this bias, is that there's this
15 organization in rural Ohio called Wellspring
16 Retreat. And it's a -- it promotes itself as an
17 anticult resource, anticult counseling center. And
18 now a lot of the witnesses in this case have been
19 sent there. Mr. Minton paid for Mr. Prince to be
20 sent to Wellspring before he gave his declaration on
21 this case for counseling about, you know,
22 Scientology. Quote, remove him and change his
23 thinking with respect to the matters that he was
24 supposed to be testifying about. I -- I compare it
25 to a witness preparation center, a witness

192
1 preparation camp, where he gets this counseling at
2 this anticult center before he testifies, so that
3 he -- so he changes his view.
4 And in fact, Prince published on the Internet
5 some statements about his stay at Wellspring paid
6 for by Mr. Minton while he was an alleged expert.
7 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Do you see --
8 MR. MOXON: He said --
9 MR. DANDAR: Do you see what I'm talking about?
10 He's testifying he knows what goes on at Wellspring.
11 He's never been there. There's no testimony. This
12 is all his imagination.
13 MR. MOXON: -- Exhibit --
14 (Simultaneous speakers.)
15 MR. DANDAR: All of this, since we came back
16 from lunch an hour ago, is his imagination on what
17 goes on and where it goes. And he hasn't been able
18 to cite you record evidence that's admissible.
19 THE COURT: He has, Counselor. It's attached.
20 And I don't know if this is attached --
21 MR. MOXON: It is Exhibit 5.
22 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 5 to what?
23 MR. MOXON: Exhibit 5 to the attachment to
24 the --
25 MR. DANDAR: To what?

193
1 MR. MOXON: -- the motion that's attached as an
2 appendix.
3 MR. DANDAR: We don't have it. We never got
4 it.
5 MR. MOXON: It's the motion that's referenced
6 that was filed in June.
7 Give Mr. Dandar an extra copy.
8 THE COURT: It's this motion, today's motion,
9 motion of defendant Church of Scientology to strike
10 Jesse Prince as a witness.
11 MS. WEST: We have it.
12 MR. MOXON: Now look under --
13 MR. DANDAR: No. We didn't get this. We
14 didn't get this at all. We got the motion and we
15 got two attachments, which are Robert Minton's
16 deposition and a hearing before Judge Quesada.
17 MR. MOXON: If you look at the proof, indicates
18 that you did receive that big attachment, because it
19 was already served upon you, Mr. Dandar.
20 MR. DANDAR: But anyway --
21 MR. MOXON: Anyway --
22 MR. DANDAR: Anyway, I just, as matter of
23 record, challenge Mr. Moxon to point in the record,
24 record evidence, that he knows what goes on inside
25 Wellspring --

194
1 MR. MOXON: Okay.
2 MR. DANDAR: -- how well Wellspring made Jesse
3 Prince's mind change so he will testify against
4 Scientology.
5 MR. MOXON: Okay. Look at page 914 of Exhibit
6 5, which is Jesse Prince's sworn testimony.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. MOXON: Starting at line 7, he says, "What
9 became clear to me as a result of my experience at
10 Wellspring is that there's a pattern of deception
11 that happens amongst different groups, such as
12 Scientology, Moonies, other Christian-based groups,
13 which is similar. There's a similar pattern to
14 where there is always one leader, always one holy,
15 sacred, exclusive lord, and different points like
16 this. So that it actually made my experience not
17 one as unique as happens among other things. And
18 there is -- it showed me clearly what the pattern is
19 to deceive someone and take over their lives. And
20 there is -- it showed me clearly what was the
21 pattern is to deceive someone and take over their
22 lives. And that was what was clear to me as a
23 result of that," that being his stay at Wellspring
24 before he testified in this case.
25 Now, he's not the only witness that was sent to

195
1 Wellspring, by the way. Mr. Dandar's witness, Ann
2 Carlson, was sent there by Mr. Minton; Ms. Stacy
3 Brooks --
4 THE COURT: I don't want to hear about
5 everything else. I want to hear about Jesse Prince.
6 MR. MOXON: Okay. Anyway, after that event,
7 after that event of his stay at Wellspring is when
8 he went out and did all the things on the videos
9 that you've seen, where he was in Boson, screaming
10 at church staff members; where he was doing his
11 pickets in Clearwater, threatening the church
12 ecclesiastical leader; where he was holding signs --
13 in fact, holding signs standing with Mr. Dandar,
14 signs staying "Lisa's blood on Scientology's hands."
15 This is another document, for example, that
16 Mr. Dandar has, which is a photograph of Mr. Dandar
17 and Mr. Prince and others outside the courthouse
18 with Mr. Prince's picket sign. And here's --
19 Mr. Dandar asked for another copy of this picket
20 sign, which I've got for you now. I got it over
21 lunch. That's the sign that he's holding, and
22 that's the sign that he was holding --
23 THE COURT: Who's holding this?
24 MR. MOXON: Here's a --
25 THE COURT: Mr. Prince, you mean?

196
1 MR. MOXON: Yeah.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. MOXON: Mr. Prince parading around in front
4 of the church with that sign -- now, these people
5 here, a lot of the people here are witnesses in this
6 case -- as Mr. Prince is parading in front of the
7 church, saying, "Here are the responsible parties in
8 this case."
9 If you go down the left side, the first is L.
10 Ron Hubbard. He's the founder of the Church of
11 Scientology. Then David Miscavige, you've heard of.
12 Mike Rinder is someone Mr. Dandar claims is a
13 witness. Elliott Abelson's an attorney. Laura
14 Vaughn's an attorney. Brian Anderson's a witness
15 Mr. Dandar's taken. Janis Johnson is a defendant.
16 David Minkoff is a witness. Alain Kartuzinski is a
17 defendant. Andrea Sprecher is a witness. The top
18 side, David Houghton is a defendant. And all of
19 these other people here that are listed, every
20 single one of them is a witness whose deposition
21 Mr. Dandar has taken, and apparently provided the
22 information to LMT to put on this sign.
23 MR. DANDAR: See, there's a statement -- he has
24 no record evidence that I provided LMT information
25 to put on the sign.

197
1 I'm sorry --
2 MR. MOXON: All I know.
3 MR. DANDAR: That's the kind of things that I'm
4 saying I would hope --
5 Can I object to this when he just interjects
6 nonrecord evidence?
7 THE COURT: You can. But you know, I don't
8 listen to half of what he says, because I'm only
9 listening to that part of the evidence that deals
10 with Jesse Prince. Every time he talks about
11 somebody else, it just goes in one ear and out the
12 other because I'm not here to address what you did.
13 And so I've told him that a couple times, but he
14 persists in it. So I just don't listen to it --
15 MR. MOXON: Okay.
16 THE COURT: -- anymore than I listen, by the
17 way, when you talk about them, because I'm not
18 interested in that today. When that motion's before
19 me, then I will.
20 MR. MOXON: Well, I'll stop saying that, then.
21 THE COURT: But this is what you're suggesting:
22 This poster is something that Mr. Prince was
23 picketing with. And you have a picture of it, that
24 you've shown me, with him in it, and another picture
25 of him that shows his extreme bias.

198
1 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: And this list on the poster itself
3 that he was carrying, at least -- at least Janis
4 Johnson, Alain Kartuzinski and David Houghton, those
5 are three of the defendants, aren't they, other than
6 the church itself?
7 MR. MOXON: That's right. And all the other
8 people on the right side are witnesses.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. MOXON: There's another posting to the
11 Internet, which is attached at Exhibit 25 to our
12 motion to disqualify for Mr. Prince, which I'm not
13 going to read into the record. It's -- it's more
14 disgusting than most. But it talks about what he's
15 doing with respect to "Ms. Cabbage." And again,
16 I --
17 THE COURT: Where is that?
18 MR. MOXON: It's Exhibit 25 to that appendix.
19 "Ms. Cabbage." Where he says "Ms. Cabbage," that's
20 a play on words for "Miscavige."
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 MR. MOXON: These are hardly the words of an
23 objective expert, and particularly when he's talking
24 about, he's having me spend money. The money he's
25 having to spend, obviously, is dealing with him in

199
1 this case.
2 Finally, as to this issue of bias, Mr. Prince
3 is an officer and director of LMT, which was
4 described by Mr. Minton in Exhibit 26 as "an
5 exciting and dynamic effort to expose Scientology
6 and all destructive mind control cults." And he
7 lists here in this document, November, 1999 --
8 identifies Jesse Prince, on the second page, as one
9 of the board members. He's the last -- the last
10 item -- the last person identified as a board
11 member.
12 And I want to show you one clip from his
13 deposition last week, a short excerpt, which --
14 which he describes in his own words that he's not
15 here -- he's not involved in this case as a, quote,
16 paid expert, but he's really here because he is an
17 advocate for a cause. He's here because, he says,
18 "This is my crusade." This is just a very short
19 clip of his deposition.
20 Number 10.
21 (A videotape was played.)
22 MR. MOXON: One of the cases I cited in our
23 papers is the case of Johnson versus United States,
24 597 FdSp 374. And they have excluded witnesses for
25 the kinds of bias that you've just seen here. And I

200
1 just want to read you this small part of this.
2 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. What page are you on?
3 MR. MOXON: I have it quoted at page 17 of my
4 brief.
5 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. The appendix?
6 MR. MOXON: That's right.
7 MR. DANDAR: There's --
8 THE COURT: Page 17?
9 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor, of the appendix.
10 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, Judge. I don't
11 understand what he's saying.
12 THE COURT: Page 17 of the appendix to the
13 motion, that was the first motion.
14 MR. DANDAR: Okay. It's the first motion. I
15 get it. All right.
16 MR. MOXON: It's quoted at the bottom of the
17 page.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 MR. MOXON: Conclusion, of course, here in the
20 final sentence, that, "This witness had to be
21 disqualified because his obsession blinds his
22 objectivity."
23 That's the same situation we're faced with with
24 Mr. Prince. A proposed witness that manifests this
25 bias simply cannot be allowed to go before the jury

201
1 with a mantle of an expert.
2 There are other cases where, similarly,
3 witnesses were excluded.
4 I'll cite you to another, in addition to the
5 one here, is Viturbo versus Dow Chemical, 646 FdSp
6 1420, at 1425 to 26, affirmed by the Fifth Circuit,
7 where an expert was excluded because he couldn't
8 view the plaintiff's condition objectively and had
9 become an advocate for a cause rather than being an
10 objective witness.
11 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Would you cite that
12 again?
13 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor. Viturbo versus
14 Dow Chemical, 646 FdSp 1420, at 1425 to 26.
15 Because of -- his obsessive anger and
16 resentment to Scientology certainly obliterated any
17 hope of objectivity for this witness, no matter what
18 he was testifying to, no matter what his alleged
19 area of expert is. And we don't think he has any.
20 But no matter what it was, he can't be permitted to
21 go before the court.
22 And that's why the trial has to exercise -- the
23 trial court is required to exercise this gatekeeper
24 function initially to make that determination.
25 And I cite the Florida case, GIW Southern

202
1 Valve -- it's actually cited here, the next page, on
2 page 18 of my brief -- versus Smith, where an expert
3 witness is qualified to give an opinion as
4 determined in the discretion of the trial court.
5 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Where is that?
6 MR. MOXON: Top of page 18 in my brief, the
7 appendix.
8 Just in case there's any further question as to
9 the court's authority and the requirement that the
10 court make a determination --
11 THE COURT: I found it okay.
12 MR. MOXON: Now, the third reason is that
13 Mr. Prince doesn't qualify as an expert under
14 pertinent legal standards, in addition to this bias
15 issue.
16 Again, the issues about which he is proposed to
17 testify by Mr. Dandar are Scientology practices,
18 Scientology practices and policies, implemented in
19 taking Lisa McPherson to the Ft. Harrison Hotel and
20 in keeping her at the hotel until she died, and,
21 quote, his personal experience and positions in
22 Scientology showing that isolation is an established
23 practice, and that the SEA Organization, with David
24 Miscavige at its head, controls all Scientology, and
25 that, therefore, they would be involved in the

203
1 isolation of Lisa McPherson. That's what Mr. Dandar
2 told us, in his expert interrogatories, he was going
3 to testify to.
4 And so Mr. Prince purported to look at some
5 counseling folders and say that, "I know what Lisa
6 McPherson was really thinking, and I know that she
7 really wanted to leave the church." And he comes to
8 these conclusions by looking at these
9 priest-penitent documents, and we start getting into
10 that area. We're getting into these other areas --
11 THE COURT: Wouldn't we be outside the area he
12 would be permitted to testify anyway, since summary
13 judgment was granted on the false imprisonment
14 issue?
15 MR. MOXON: I would certainly hope so. I would
16 certainly hope so. But I -- I doubt if Mr. Dandar's
17 given up on some aspects of that, because he wants
18 to use it for emotional distress.
19 At any rate --
20 THE COURT: But as I recall, I told him he
21 couldn't because that had already been eliminated by
22 the false imprisonment summary judgment.
23 MR. MOXON: Oh, okay. Good.
24 THE COURT: Although I'm not happy with,
25 necessarily, the fact that the summary judgment was

204
1 granted on the false imprisonment case, because I
2 think that may have to be tried -- this may make us
3 try this case another time, no matter what happens
4 the first go-around.
5 MR. MOXON: Very good.
6 The statutory standards as to whether a witness
7 can testify is evidence code 90.72, providing that a
8 scientific or person -- technical person with
9 specialized knowledge who can assist the trier of
10 fact in understanding the evidence or determining a
11 fact in issue is the only one who can testify.
12 Pursuant to the Ramirez case, the Supreme Court
13 case in Florida, a person can only be qualified if
14 he meets three standards. The Ramirez case is 651
15 So2d 1164. And it identified tests for the
16 admissibility.
17 THE COURT: I'll read this stuff --
18 MR. MOXON: So he wanted us to try our facts,
19 and I think perhaps we've done enough on that.
20 Fourth reason is he's barred by contract. And
21 I've addressed this briefly in our papers. I won't
22 go on too much further except that --
23 THE COURT: Where is that? Because frankly, I
24 don't remember reading that.
25 MR. MOXON: Okay.

205
1 THE COURT: I realize it was in there; I just
2 don't remember reading it.
3 MR. MOXON: His paragraphs are attached at
4 Exhibit 29. And it starts at page 19 of my brief,
5 is the brief argument of that. And I won't address
6 it further except that he is barred by contract.
7 These three contracts --
8 THE COURT: Are you talking about in the
9 appendix brief?
10 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Page 19?
12 MR. MOXON: Yes.
13 This is where this RentClub issue comes back in
14 again, where a witness who's bound by contract not
15 to testify cannot do so.
16 And among his contracts that he signed, his
17 agreements he signed when he was a church member, he
18 agreed he would never disclose information regarding
19 internal structure, functions or activities learned
20 in the course of his being a staff member of the
21 church; he recognizes that any information or
22 knowledge is gathered in a relationship of trust and
23 confidence; and that he has a fiduciary duty to the
24 church not to reveal information of any nature which
25 might tend to harm malign, damage or adversely

206
1 affect the church.
2 He's been paid by plaintiff and plaintiff's
3 counsel to breach that contract. That's improper,
4 and he can't testify.
5 THE COURT: Well, let me ask you that. Could
6 he testify and be sued for breach of contract or
7 could he be barred from testifying as an expert if
8 he were an expert?
9 MR. MOXON: Well, he could be sued for breach
10 of contract, except he's judgment-proof. He doesn't
11 have any money except what he's paid by Mr. Minton
12 or Mr. Dandar, so it wouldn't do any good to sue
13 him. There's -- obviously -- just today, you can
14 imagine how much money the church has spent in just
15 defending this one motion here today, arising out of
16 Mr. Prince. It's far more than Prince could ever
17 pay. So a suit could be brought, sure, but he's
18 judgment-proof, and there's no --
19 THE COURT: I'm not asking you about that.
20 What I'm asking you is when somebody signs a
21 contract that says, in essence, what you say this
22 contract says, does the court have the obligation
23 not to allow that person to testify, if they
24 otherwise qualify to testify, and uphold the
25 contract, or does the court allow the witness, if he

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1 otherwise qualifies, to testify; and then, if he's
2 breached his contract, he's sued? I don't know the
3 answer to that. It's a rhetorical question.
4 MR. MOXON: Well, in the RentClub case, where
5 there was a situation like that, the court says,
6 "I've got to disqualify the witness."
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. MOXON: Can't testify.
9 THE COURT: That was in which case?
10 MR. MOXON: RentClub. That's 811 FdSp. My
11 jump cite here is 654 -- yeah -- 651. 811 FdSp 651.
12 This also is -- this is a Florida case, Middle
13 District of Florida, applying Florida contract law.
14 I've cited to other decisions. That was
15 affirmed. And there's also other decisions I've
16 cited to this effect.
17 The final issue, then, is one that's not in our
18 papers and just arose because of his recent
19 testimony where he's asserting the Fifth Amendment.
20 It would obviously be a very unusual situation
21 to put a witness on and --
22 THE COURT: Can't do it.
23 MR. MOXON: -- plead the Fifth.
24 THE COURT: Well, I guess you can --
25 No, you can't. Because if you plead the Fifth,

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1 then cross examination, you move to strike his
2 testimony. So knowing in advance if he were going
3 to tell me he was going to claim the Fifth and I
4 asked him, and he said he was, I wouldn't allow him
5 to testify.
6 MR. MOXON: That's what we have here. I took
7 his deposition. He pled the Fifth Amendment.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Clearly, you'd be allowed to ask
9 him, if he testified as an expert, how much he'd
10 been paid, and on and on.
11 MR. MOXON: Yeah.
12 Does the court have any questions?
13 THE COURT: No.
14 Yes, I have one.
15 You gave me this. This is not part of your
16 motion. And as I indicated to you all, I'm going to
17 allow all of the exhibits that you attach to be
18 considered part of the record, because the record's
19 huge. And this is not part of your attachment, I
20 don't believe.
21 MR. MOXON: If we have -- maybe the court
22 reporter can give us an exhibit -- I'll mark as an
23 exhibit --
24 THE COURT: We'll just make it exhibit -- I
25 don't have --

209
1 (A discussion was held off the record.)
2 THE COURT: We'll make it Exhibit 1 to this
3 hearing. Do you want to make it part of the record?
4 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. MOXON: The three photographs?
7 THE COURT: Very good. Mr. Prince holding the
8 sign --
9 MR. MOXON: All right.
10 THE COURT: Thank you.
11 Mr. Dandar, you may proceed.
12 MR. DANDAR: I have a case, but it's on my
13 computer. And I think it'll resolve everything
14 unless -- and then I'd like to put Mr. Prince on.
15 He can tell you his qualifications to be an expert
16 on Scientology practices.
17 THE COURT: All right.
18 MR. DANDAR: First of all, I want to tell the
19 court, we have retained Mr. Prince to educate me on
20 Scientology practices, and then to testify as an
21 expert witness on the PC folders of Lisa McPherson.
22 She was kept six to eight weeks at the hotel,
23 Fort Harrison Hotel, in the summer before her death.
24 She has a lot of PC folders, which are her words
25 being recorded by an auditor. And it takes someone

210
1 with the expertise of Mr. Prince to interpret the
2 abbreviations that are made in the PC folders.
3 Judge Moody already said that at a hearing, when he
4 had the PC folders, when we were trying to get them
5 produced, and he looked at them and said, "I can't
6 make heads or tails. Mr. Prince, what does this
7 say?" And Mr. Prince and Ben Shaw were at that
8 hearing, told Judge Moody what these PC folders
9 said.
10 So also Mr. Prince is being called, very
11 importantly, to talk about what a PC folder is
12 supposed to contain. And in that -- in his expert
13 testimony -- which I, of course, would never know
14 what that -- what it's supposed to be. What do I
15 know, what a PC folder's supposed to have in it?
16 THE COURT: Same thing I know.
17 MR. DANDAR: Right.
18 The duty of the expert is -- the reason why you
19 need an expert is to assist the trier of fact. The
20 trier of fact would not be able to take these PC
21 folders and make any determination whatsoever. The
22 trier of fact could not even read the red or green
23 volumes of the Church of Scientology to decide what
24 is supposed to be in the PC folders.
25 And it becomes very important. Because through

211
1 the expert testimony of Mr. Prince, there are a huge
2 quantity of missing records. Scientology already
3 admits that the last two and a half days of the
4 attendant logs of those watching Lisa 24 hours a
5 day -- they admit those are missing. We also have
6 records missing from day one to the end.
7 Mr. Prince would also be able to testify as to,
8 if she is indeed participating in a religious
9 practice, as Scientology now claims, then that's
10 supposed to be in her PC folder. It's not there.
11 He would be able to testify as to the significance
12 of that.
13 He would also be able to testify as to what
14 else is missing in the summer of 1995.
15 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I object, because this
16 is none of the things that he listed Mr. Prince to
17 testify about. These are new things he's bringing
18 up now, as to what Prince would be testifying to in
19 the future. He says he's withdrawn him.
20 The question is, of course, back then, back in
21 the year 2000, what was it that he said he was going
22 to testify about? And did he qualify as an expert
23 witness under the issues that we've set forth; not
24 as to what he might want him to testify about now.
25 MR. DANDAR: So in the affidavit of Mr. Prince,

212
1 filed in 1999 in this case, he puts down in his
2 affidavit, which is under seal with the court, what
3 he found in the PC folders. He first puts out his
4 qualifications to make him an expert witness in
5 Scientology practices; then he puts down what he
6 found in the PC folders, and then he puts down what
7 is missing in the PC folders. Everything I just
8 told you today are in his prior affidavits filed
9 with this court under seal.
10 Now, does the court, at a hearing like this --
11 can the court exclude an expert witness because the
12 defendant says he's biased? He uses foul language
13 when he gets upset. He pickets against the Church
14 of Scientology. He works for the Lisa McPherson
15 Trust, which is organized to expose the abusive
16 practices of Scientology; and also, though, to help
17 those members who want to leave Scientology and get
18 into a life outside the Scientology.
19 They say Mr. Prince hates Scientologists. If
20 Mr. Prince hates Scientologists, why is he now
21 devoting all his time to helping Scientologists?
22 You see, there's a dichotomy there that's illogical
23 and makes no sense.
24 First --
25 THE COURT: You might want to say

213
1 ex-Scientologists. I dare say he's of no help to
2 Mr. Moxon, for example.
3 MR. DANDAR: Well, he offers help to anyone,
4 including Mr. Moxon, believe it or not.
5 But Mr. Moxon brought up the fact that there
6 are adult children that were talked to by
7 Mr. Prince, and they left Scientology. That's
8 right. These adult children came into the Lisa
9 McPherson Trust; Mr. Prince is here. If you want to
10 hear all this testimony on how he helped them
11 because they decided they wanted to leave and they
12 didn't know how, and Mr. Prince assisted in
13 counseling them on how to do it, and if the court
14 wants to hear, Mr. Prince is ready --
15 THE COURT: Tell me what that would be offered
16 for. To show that he was not biased?
17 MR. DANDAR: Right. He's -- he's there,
18 sitting there, and going on to places where he's
19 called to go to assist people who want to leave
20 Scientology. If he hated Scientologists, he would
21 just tell them, "Hey, go take a walk; you know,
22 leave me alone." He doesn't do that. He goes and
23 assists them. If they say, "I changed my -- I like
24 Scientology fine," they stay in Scientology.
25 So this thing about --

214
1 But what I'm trying to get to is, there is a
2 case that Mr. Moxon doesn't want to cite to you --
3 THE COURT: How about you cite it? And I'm
4 going to take a break and read those causes.
5 MR. DANDAR: May I sit down and read it off --
6 THE COURT: Sure you can.
7 MR. DANDAR: I'll give you the cite.
8 That case is called Elkins versus Syken. It is
9 from the Third DCA --
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What's the last --
11 Syken.
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 And I'm going to give you the spelling.
14 S-y-k-e-n versus Elkins. And when we got to the
15 Supreme Court, it was reversed Elkins versus Syken.
16 But -- it was 644 So2d 539. This is the Third DCA,
17 1994.
18 The court -- the court held that the trial
19 court does not have discretion to decide if a
20 witness is biased and therefore exclude the witness
21 based on bias.
22 MR. MOXON: What's the cite; the jump cite?
23 MR. DANDAR: I'll give it to you in a second.
24 And it cites the Florida Evidence Code.
25 And I just had this all highlighted and now --

215
1 I'm sorry I'm taking so long.
2 THE COURT: That's all right.
3 MR. DANDAR: I have the case. I had this all
4 highlighted and underlined on my computer, and now
5 it's not there. But the case is still in front of
6 me. I'm trying to find it to quote to the court.
7 Let's take a break, if that's all right.
8 THE COURT: Okay. It's 10 till. We'll be back
9 at 10 after.
10 I'll try to be better -- I was on the phone
11 both this morning and this afternoon. I'm sorry.
12 So we'll be in recess for 20 minutes.
13 (A recess was taken.)
14 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, you may continue.
15 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
16 I told the court before the break that it was
17 Elkin versus Syken, but actually the case is Meyer
18 versus Caruso, 731 So2d 118. I've been able to give
19 opposing counsel a copy on one of their disks.
20 And in that case, the trial court was reversed
21 when the trial court struck the plaintiff's expert,
22 a medical doctor, calling the doctor a professional
23 witness, bought and paid for, citing that the doctor
24 formed an opinion based upon conversations with the
25 plaintiff's counsel before he ever looked at any

216
1 medical records, showing that he was biased; and
2 also due to the fact that 95 percent of the clients
3 of the doctor, expert witness, was for the
4 plaintiff.
5 And the appellate court said that's not
6 appropriate; that's legal error to do that, and
7 cited two rules of evidence under Florida, 702 and
8 704.
9 Rule 90.702 is the only statute we have which
10 concerns qualifications of an expert witness, no
11 matter if it's medical, business -- you know,
12 anything where someone is going to be qualified as
13 an expert. And 702, according to the Fourth DCA,
14 and citing some other Florida cases as well, said,
15 "702 does not enlarge judicial discretion to exclude
16 evidence so much as it affords a party in litigation
17 the right to present expert opinions if they meet
18 the statutory standard of, quote, assisting the
19 trier of fact in understanding the evidence or in
20 determining a fact in issue by testimony from a
21 person qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill,
22 experience, training or education."
23 And section 90.704 also is not an exclusionary
24 rule at all, but instead merely provides that, "The
25 facts or data upon which that expert bases an

217
1 opinion may be made known to the expert at or before
2 the trial."
3 The latter statute which they're talking about
4 is 704; does not purport to require that the facts
5 be made known to the expert before he forms an
6 opinion, however desirable that may be.
7 And the court, in determining the
8 qualifications of an expert, only can look to 702,
9 which contains only three requirements:
10 Number one, that the opinion evidence be
11 helpful to the trier of fact; number two, that the
12 witness be qualified as an expert; and number three,
13 that the opinion evidence can be applied to evidence
14 offered at trial.
15 These provisions are a liberal policy on the
16 admission of expert evidence generally rendering
17 such evidence admissible to the extent that it is
18 helpful to the trier of fact.
19 Now, whether or not the witness is biased, a
20 paid professional, only testifies for the
21 plaintiffs, renders opinions before looking at the
22 evidence -- that goes to the weight to be considered
23 only by the jury, not by the court. The court has
24 the discretion only in determining whether or not
25 the qualifications of the person is an expert;

218
1 qualifies that person as an expert. And that's
2 number one.
3 Number two, Mr. Moxon has been making these
4 motions against me personally for -- since he got in
5 the case back in 2000, about paying fact witnesses;
6 paying a fact witness is unethical. He cites the
7 RentClub case, which I have also here.
8 And what he fails to do is to let the court
9 know that the Florida Supreme Court disagrees with
10 the RentClub case. In the RentClub case, the
11 federal court in Florida held that it was not proper
12 for the attorney to have ex parte communication with
13 a former employee of the defendant. And that's the
14 holding in that case. However the Florida
15 Supreme -- and they cited as authority, in the
16 RentClub case, a case called Barfuss -- and I'll
17 give you the cite, but -- if you need it; Barfuss
18 versus Diversicare Corporation of America.
19 THE COURT: Why are we going to this argument
20 now?
21 MR. DANDAR: Well, he brought it up. I just
22 want you know that that's all -- that is not the law
23 of Florida.
24 The Supreme Court of Florida, in HBA
25 Management, Inc. versus the Estate of May Schwartz,

219
1 693 So2d 541, overruled Barfuss, which was a Second
2 DCA decision, and said, "Yes, you are allowed to
3 have ex parte communication with former employees."
4 And then he cites the Golden Door case, about
5 paying fact witnesses. And I want to bring the
6 Golden Door case to your attention. That was a case
7 that arose in Miami federal court, where the
8 insurance company paid $700,000 to informants,
9 provided they testified and squealed on the master
10 ringleader of a theft for insurance fraud. And the
11 court said, "You can't condition payment on a fact
12 witness about how good they testify in court."
13 There is no evidence to suggest that I engaged
14 in that activity. There never will be, because it's
15 totally false.
16 But I bring that to your attention, because
17 Golden Door is just way out there on a limb; has
18 nothing to do with this case whatsoever.
19 Now, let me stand up and address you. I'm
20 sorry.
21 Jesse Prince is here ready to testify, and
22 testify as to his qualifications on being an expert
23 on Scientology practices. This testimony is not to
24 talk about whether or not Scientology's a religion.
25 That should not be an issue in this case and we

220
1 don't want to make it an issue in this case. We do
2 have an expert from Canada if that becomes an issue
3 in the case, but it shouldn't be an issue in the
4 case.
5 THE COURT: Tell me what you were going to call
6 Jesse Prince for.
7 MR. DANDAR: To tell you about his
8 experience --
9 THE COURT: No, no. To tell the jury in the
10 trial.
11 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Jesse Prince will be called
12 in to testify as to explanation of what Lisa
13 McPherson said in her preclear folders in 1995 and
14 prior to 1995; primarily, though, in 1995.
15 In the preclear folders, his affidavits show
16 that he reviewed those preclear folders, and she was
17 very dissatisfied with Scientology. It wasn't
18 working for her.
19 And he will testify that there's many things
20 missing from those preclear folders which are
21 required to be in the preclear folders, according to
22 the policies of the Church of Scientology. That's
23 not attacking Scientology, that's not disparaging
24 Scientology, and it's not saying Scientology is not
25 a religion. It's merely saying, based on his

221
1 expertise and his knowledge, because of his
2 experience, he knows that these are supposed to be
3 in her PC folders, and that it's a high crime in
4 Scientology for those papers to be missing. And
5 they are missing.
6 Then he'll testify about they have relied upon
7 letters allegedly written by Lisa McPherson, saying
8 how wonderful Scientology is and how wonderful her
9 experience was in the summer of 1995. He will
10 testify as an expert, saying that those are called
11 success stories, and they are required for a member
12 to write in order to continue on. Otherwise, you
13 get put into what's called lower conditions, ethics,
14 which is punishment in Scientology.
15 He will then talk about the 18 -- November 18
16 to December 5th, her stay at the Ft. Harrison Hotel,
17 and reading the policies and his experience and
18 expertise on the policy of the Church of
19 Scientology. Number one, he has personal experience
20 on isolation and he can describe what isolation is,
21 why isolation is implemented. And then, looking at
22 the PC folders of Lisa McPherson from August of 1995
23 to the date of her death, December 5th, 1995, what
24 records should be in her file -- that's a different
25 segment -- and what records are missing.

222
1 And in her stay at the Ft. Harrison Hotel, if
2 indeed she was participating in a religious service,
3 which they now claim, which they didn't claim prior
4 in statements to the police, for instance, that
5 there are records missing there, and questionable
6 whether she was engaged in any religious activity
7 whatsoever.
8 So you and I and the jury can't make that
9 determination whatsoever. It's taken me years to
10 learn Scientology practices, and I'm certainly not
11 an expert on it.
12 I can hear Mr. Shaw in the background telling
13 me I'm misstating something. I'm sure I'm
14 misstating something. But I'm telling you as best I
15 can what Scientology practices are in reference to
16 Lisa McPherson.
17 But only -- Mr. Prince and someone of his
18 expertise is needed to help the trier of fact
19 determine what went on with Lisa McPherson; why
20 things were going on the way they were. Because no
21 one else can explain it, and we can't certainly rely
22 only upon the defendant to come in here and tell us
23 what was happening to Lisa McPherson.
24 THE COURT: Okay. So you would have used him
25 to testify as an expert about the preclear folders;

223
1 two things: She wanted to leave and there were
2 things that should have been in there that are
3 missing.
4 MR. DANDAR: Right.
5 THE COURT: That he would have talked about --
6 and somehow I've got a big blank here -- he would
7 have talked about -- the second thing you mentioned.
8 The third thing he was going to talk about the
9 18th through the 25th (sic); he could describe
10 isolation. Also, what records should be in the file
11 that are missing.
12 MR. DANDAR: Right.
13 THE COURT: What was the second thing?
14 MR. DANDAR: Well, from August of '95, when she
15 left, the six to eight weeks at the hotel in the
16 summer till the time she died or the time she went
17 into the hotel the last time --
18 THE COURT: I know what it was.
19 MR. DANDAR: -- there's records missing there,
20 and there's letters purportedly written by her. And
21 he's going to talk about why those letters are
22 written.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, may I very briefly
25 address this --

224
1 THE COURT: Sure.
2 MR. MOXON: -- issue?
3 As you mentioned earlier, these are the very
4 things that -- the first ones, at least, are the
5 ones that Judge Quesada already ruled on and already
6 struck Mr. Prince's declaration as to these issues
7 concerning her alleged personal experience in
8 isolation, and that she wanted to leave the church.
9 Indeed, it's controverted by the testimony of all of
10 Lisa's family, saying that she wanted to be there.
11 They all said that.
12 In any event, Judge Quesada already ruled on
13 these others.
14 And the other issue, whether or not there's
15 been some documents that are missing, that's been
16 known for years. Everyone knows there's some
17 reports that are missing. There's never been any
18 question about that. That's not a need for expert
19 testimony. That's a factual issue. These documents
20 existed -- Mr. Dandar's taken the deposition of
21 people that have said, "Well, I wrote a report the
22 next day and it can't be found now."
23 So again, that's not -- certainly not an expert
24 issue.
25 MR. DANDAR: But Mr. Prince's expertise comes

225
1 in because that does not happen in Scientology.
2 There are so many procedures in place that only his
3 expertise can tell us about. Missing records do
4 not -- does not happen in Scientology.
5 THE COURT: Okay. How about the -- so that
6 would have to do with all of the missing things. I
7 know that there's missing notes, because that's been
8 conceded, too, during the -- during the period in
9 question for this lawsuit.
10 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
11 THE COURT: And --
12 MR. DANDAR: And the fact that Lisa McPherson's
13 family said she didn't want to leave, that's from,
14 like, six to eight years before she died.
15 And we --
16 MR. MOXON: No.
17 MR. DANDAR: -- forget to mention the
18 deposition testimony of her girlfriend from high
19 school, who she called the week before she went into
20 the hotel, whose conversation left her with the
21 impression that Lisa McPherson was quitting her job,
22 leaving Clearwater, going back to Texas and getting
23 out of Scientology.
24 I mean, those are all things that a jury can
25 consider. And then consider the fact that there's

226
1 missing records, and why are there missing records?
2 Only Mr. Prince -- it's not something that -- I
3 miss, records, all the time, as everyone knows in
4 this courtroom -- it's not something that just
5 happens by accident. Missing records is a practice
6 that is a high crime in Scientology, and it only
7 happens unintentionally -- excuse me --
8 intentionally.
9 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, again, those are issues
10 that Judge Quesada's already ruled upon.
11 THE COURT: Well, I think you're right, as far
12 as she wanted to leave. As I understand, in a
13 motion for summary judgment, he's ruled there's no
14 false imprisonment. So that's neither here nor
15 there.
16 But as far as missing records, in particular
17 the missing records from the time of the alleged
18 incident, I suppose you're going to be requesting
19 that the jury can draw an adverse inference from
20 that.
21 MR. DANDAR: Yes, I am, but --
22 THE COURT: So I don't know why you need
23 Mr. Prince for that. I mean, that's -- that's a
24 fact. And a jury is permitted to draw a negative
25 inference from missing records that ought to be

227
1 there.
2 MR. DANDAR: Judge, this week I am filing a
3 motion to set aside the prior final judgment. It is
4 so full with errors; the judge weighing Mr. Prince's
5 testimony, of weighing conflicting testimony between
6 the staff, of weighing conflicting testimony with
7 the emergency room doctor, and the order was
8 prepared by Mr. Moxon, 99 percent. And it is just
9 so loaded with errors that the Second DCA said it's
10 not appealable at this time. I tried to appeal it.
11 They said, "Wait till the case is over."
12 So this week, I'm filing a motion to rescind,
13 which you, of course, have the inherent authority to
14 do that, based upon if you -- and I have cases that
15 I'll be citing in there -- based upon the fact that
16 it is inherently in error and should be tried before
17 a jury because of the issues.
18 THE COURT: Well, let's deal with that another
19 day.
20 MR. DANDAR: Well, I just want you to know.
21 THE COURT: For now, that is an irrelevant
22 matter, because for now, the motion for summary
23 judgment says false imprisonment is not an issue,
24 okay?
25 But I suppose that there is some -- some expert

228
1 value to the fact -- unless -- I don't know if it's
2 expert testimony or not, but some value to having a
3 witness state that they introduced these letters and
4 say, "Wow, this is great, and I love it here," just
5 for somebody to say that that's something everybody
6 has to write. Because a jury would not know that
7 without --
8 I don't know if that's an expert, Mr. Dandar,
9 or whether that's a fact witness. Though he's not
10 an expert. It doesn't require expertise. Any
11 Scientologist could come in here and say it, and
12 they're sure not all experts. I mean, they're just
13 Scientologists. It's somebody who's going to --
14 there's a limited number of people that can testify
15 as to matters involving the Baptist Church or
16 matters involving the Church of Scientology, but
17 they're not experts on the -- anything. They just
18 know what they know.
19 MR. DANDAR: Well, I think that -- I think that
20 someone -- I'm sure it's going to -- from what I
21 hear behind me, it's going to be rebutted that
22 that's not true, and someone with an expertise is
23 going to have to come in and establish and prove to
24 you and the trier of fact that here are the
25 policies; this is how the policies are interpreted;

229
1 this is why these letters are written.
2 An ex-Scientologist, if I could find one
3 willing to testify -- I don't know. I'm sure I
4 couldn't get a Scientologist to testify that way.
5 So I would need someone who's a former
6 Scientologist. I need someone that knows what
7 they're talking about.
8 THE COURT: If it's true, why couldn't you
9 subpoena a Scientologist to testify that way?
10 MR. DANDAR: I just don't believe I'd get
11 accurate information.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Let's see.
13 Okay. Go on ahead with your argument.
14 MR. DANDAR: And the other one are the PC
15 folders. There's -- you know, they're going to come
16 in and try to challenge the -- how the PC folders
17 read. They're going to actually try to prevent
18 anyone from seeing the PC folders on what Lisa
19 McPherson really thought about Scientology. And
20 Mr. Prince --
21 THE COURT: What does what Lisa McPherson
22 thought about Scientology have to do with whether or
23 not there's a wrongful death; whether or not they
24 were negligent, and their negligence caused her
25 death; whether or not they intentionally abused her

230
1 in causing mental distress -- which I have limited
2 to roach bites and, I think, either starving and/or
3 not giving her water -- in the event the jury does
4 not believe that that is a cause of death? Cause of
5 death doesn't come into intentional infliction of
6 mental distress.
7 But if they buy their theory as to cause of
8 death, then they could perhaps find that they
9 intentionally withheld liquid from her, and
10 therefore, that's a measure of damages.
11 I think that's about what I've limited you to
12 on that area.
13 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
14 THE COURT: So where was I going --
15 MR. DANDAR: I don't know.
16 THE COURT: I don't know. I don't know either.
17 (A discussion was held off the record
18 And the reporter read back to the court.)
19 MR. DANDAR: That's wrongful death, though.
20 That doesn't --
21 THE COURT: You've got three counts left, as I
22 recall: Wrongful death; you've got intentional
23 infliction of mental distress, which I have limited
24 to some extent to those two areas; you've got a
25 battery.

231
1 MR. DANDAR: And negligence. General
2 negligence.
3 THE COURT: General negligence.
4 What would what she thought about Scientology
5 have to do with any of those things?
6 Now, it would have something to do with false
7 imprisonment, whether she was being held there
8 against her will. But that's been ruled on at this
9 point that that is summary judgment --
10 MR. DANDAR: See, I -- I just don't think this
11 is the appropriate time to -- I mean, the issue that
12 they presented is, is Jesse Prince qualified to be
13 an expert? Not, do we need him? You know, the
14 question is, is he qualified to be an expert?
15 And only through his testimony -- which is, by
16 the way, is in his affidavit on his qualifications,
17 which is not before you 'cause it's under seal in a
18 box --
19 THE COURT: I have one affidavit in your
20 filing. Is there another --
21 Oh, the other affidavit, you're saying, shows
22 his --
23 MR. DANDAR: Right.
24 THE COURT: -- qualifications?
25 MR. DANDAR: Right.

232
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. DANDAR: Whether or not he qualifies as an
3 expert. That's the question. I think the court
4 should rule whether or not he qualifies as an
5 expert. Doesn't have anything to do with whether or
6 not he uses foul language, marijuana or hates the
7 Church of Scientology. That goes to bias and weight
8 of the evidence, which is what the Meyer case points
9 out --
10 THE COURT: If I were to ask you, Mr. Dandar,
11 right now here and now, in this court, as an officer
12 of this court, to tell me whether or not, if I were
13 to allow you to use Mr. Prince as an expert, knowing
14 all that you know right now and all that they would
15 use to cross examine him -- if I were to ask you,
16 would you really call him or would you say, "I want
17 to think on that"?
18 MR. DANDAR: No. I would -- I've been wanting
19 to call him for almost five years. Four years.
20 Yeah.
21 It looks -- it looks bad, but they just
22 hand-delivered to me yesterday the videotapes that
23 Judge Beach ordered in full of these little clips
24 that you saw, which look terrible. And if they
25 produce what Judge Beach ordered them to produce, I

233
1 will be able to judge it better, because it'll show
2 what was going on coming from the minsters of
3 Scientology, what they were saying to Jesse Prince
4 that got him all riled up in the most vulgar of the
5 videos.
6 If you notice the later videos, where he's in
7 Clearwater, where -- I think one had -- he had a tie
8 on -- I mean, he's just talking to them. He's
9 smiling; he's joking around with them. He's not
10 saying anything vulgar. There's two clips like
11 that. So when I get a chance to study the entire
12 clip, I'll have a better idea.
13 But you know, Jesse Prince is, you know, their
14 former expert, contrary to Mr. Moxon. And I have
15 it, and if you want, I can give you the excerpt from
16 Mr. Rosen, the attorney for Scientology in the
17 Bridge Publication versus FACTNet case in Denver
18 federal court, where he said Mr. Prince was the
19 former number two worldwide Scientologist before he
20 left, and Mr. Prince was our expert. And Mr. Prince
21 today, testifying that even the month that Lisa
22 died, he was paid $3,000 by the attorneys for
23 Scientology for his expert consultation.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else?
25 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Now, Mr. Moxon made some

234
1 allegations that Mr. Minton and I and Jesse Prince
2 are involved in trading -- or using drug money. I
3 don't know where that came from, but I hope the
4 court disregarded that --
5 THE COURT: I did. I don't even remember it.
6 MR. DANDAR: All right. Good.
7 Well, if we're on the issue of whether or not
8 he has qualifications to be an expert witness, then
9 I'd like to call him to the stand.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Prince?
12 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, we would object to
13 that. I'll let Mr. Hertzberg address the reasons
14 why.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, first of all, I
17 would assume that if Mr. Prince were to testify,
18 which we don't think he should be permitted to under
19 these circumstances, that he'd be waiving the Fifth
20 Amendment privilege, so --
21 THE COURT: He better. If he doesn't waive the
22 Fifth Amendment privilege, he'll never be able to be
23 called as an expert. So you better tell him that.
24 MR. PRINCE: I do, I waive it, your Honor.
25 MR. HERTZBERG: Okay. Secondly, if I

235
1 understand the proffer for this testimony, it would
2 be to submit to your Honor what his qualifications
3 are. And I think what Mr. Dandar means by that, and
4 as he's explained in his presentation, he means, was
5 he in the Church for X number of years, and what his
6 position was and all that.
7 Leaving aside and reserving all of our
8 objections to whether somebody -- even if all of
9 that were correct and accepted, and leaving aside
10 all our objections on constitutional and other
11 grounds to the impermissibility of allowing somebody
12 who occupied that status, but is an apostate now, to
13 testify on the grounds that Mr. Dandar listed as his
14 purported -- as his proffered trial testimony --
15 none of that is relevant, seems to me, in response
16 to the legal arguments that Mr. Moxon made, because
17 what Mr. Moxon is relying upon is the bias issue.
18 The bias issue is manifest and in the record from
19 the time period after Mr. Prince left the church.
20 So it doesn't matter whether Mr. Prince can get
21 up there and now testify that, "Many, many years
22 ago, I did this in the church and I did that in the
23 church, and I believe I'm familiar with this
24 practice or I'm familiar with that Scientology
25 practice." That -- that doesn't go to the bias

236
1 issue.
2 The bias -- the issue is whether this man, by
3 his conduct after leaving the church, has been so
4 manifestly irrational and blind in his -- and
5 manifest in his hatred and his stated views, that,
6 regardless of whether, in the abstract, he might
7 have qualified at one time to be an expert witness,
8 whether he can be one now.
9 And so I would say that his testimony, as I
10 understand it, would be irrelevant to rebut the
11 points that Mr. Moxon made.
12 THE COURT: Well, it may be. And I may have
13 agreed before I read this case. But this case --
14 and granted, I did not have a chance to study all
15 these cases as carefully as I will -- but this case
16 out of the Fourth District is somewhat contrary to
17 what I would have believed the law to be. And it's
18 a 1999 case that seems to suggest that, biased or
19 not, that the rule of -- Florida Rules of Evidence
20 don't permit me to preclude somebody on the basis
21 that they're biased.
22 MR. MOXON: May I address this case, your
23 Honor?
24 MR. DANDAR: You're absolutely right, Judge.
25 THE COURT: You can address it briefly, but I

237
1 think that -- I don't even know that that would save
2 the day. I think the long and the short of it is --
3 is, I'm going to be asked to make a ruling at the
4 close of this day, and I'm going to do so. And
5 golly, somebody will probably take an appeal before
6 the case is over. But at some point in time, he's
7 going to want to have -- Mr. Dandar, even if I was
8 to rule that he couldn't testify, is going to want
9 to have a record to show that he was qualified.
10 Will you stipulate, without him being called as
11 a witness, that he would testify as to whatever it
12 is in that sealed -- as far as his qualifications --
13 until I could read it --
14 MR. MOXON: That he's qualified to what's in
15 the sealed thing?
16 THE COURT: That he would testify here today as
17 to what he said in his sealed affidavit.
18 Have you seen it?
19 I mean, is it sealed from them?
20 MR. MOXON: I've seen it.
21 MR. DANDAR: They have it.
22 MR. MOXON: I've seen it.
23 THE COURT: Is it accurate?
24 MR. MOXON: No.
25 MR. DANDAR: Oh, then --

238
1 THE COURT: Then we've got to call him.
2 MR. MOXON: No.
3 But that's not the issue, whether or not it's
4 accurate.
5 THE COURT: He has a right to make his record,
6 Counsel. And you can argue the case in a minute,
7 but I think he can make his record. I just want to
8 hear qualifications, though, okay?
9 _______________________________________
10 JESSE PRINCE,
11 the witness herein, having been previously sworn, was
12 examined and testified as follows:
13 THE COURT: You're still under oath.
14 And I'm going to ask you under oath, because
15 they're going to want to take your deposition as
16 soon as this is done. Let's get this straight.
17 You can't testify for one side and then, when
18 the other side starts asking you questions about
19 your bias, which is, you know, how much have you
20 been paid -- that is a clearly permissible bias
21 question. You can't take the Fifth Amendment. Do
22 you understand?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
24 THE COURT: So the first question I would ask
25 you now under oath is, do you understand and are you

239
1 willing to waive your Fifth Amendment and answer
2 their questions on this?
3 THE WITNESS: In relationship to my finances,
4 yes, your Honor, I am.
5 THE COURT: Yes. In relation to what you've
6 been paid.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 THE COURT: By either Mr. Dandar, Mr. Minton or
9 anyone involving this case.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, ma'am.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 We're not going there today. You can take
13 another deposition now if you want to. But I just
14 want to hear his qualifications on the record. You
15 can cross examine those.
16 MR. MOXON: Is this -- is he asserting -- he's
17 waiving the Fifth as to all the questions I asked
18 him?
19 MR. DANDAR: As to his finances.
20 THE COURT: If you asked him something that you
21 couldn't possibly ask him on cross examination, it
22 wouldn't matter.
23 MR. MOXON: Well, there are other questions
24 that would go to his -- to his background and
25 credibility and whether or not he could ever qualify

240
1 as a religion expert. Remember, he's being --
2 THE COURT: You can ask those.
3 MR. MOXON: But those go to all his drug use
4 and his drug abuse and his criminal histories. As
5 you know, he's claiming to be a religious expert.
6 And so I would want to show --
7 THE COURT: That doesn't have a thing to do
8 with his ability to testify as an expert.
9 MR. MOXON: Sure does, because it's so --
10 THE COURT: No, it doesn't.
11 MR. MOXON: I'll tell you, if I may, your
12 Honor, it's so contrary to Scientology that somebody
13 who can say, "Well, I was a former minister in the
14 Church of Scientology, and in the meantime I've used
15 marijuana thousands of times; I harassed women;
16 I --" you know --
17 THE COURT: I'm going to tell you something:
18 If I let him go testify as an expert, you are going
19 to lose that portion of this motion that suggests
20 that you all did not do anything to set Mr. Prince
21 up. One of the sanctions that I would impose in the
22 event that I allow him to testify is I would
23 preclude you from benefitting from any of that. So
24 I'm not going to allow you to ask it today. There
25 you have it.

241
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Mr. Prince, state your name, please.
4 A Jesse Prince.
5 Q And what is your date of birth?
6 A March 15th, 1954.
7 Q And do you live here in Clearwater?
8 A Yes, I do.
9 Q On Belleair Road?
10 A Yes, I do.
11 Q Mr. Prince, at what age did you join the Church of
12 Scientology?
13 A Age 21.
14 Q What is the extent of your education before
15 joining the Church of Scientology?
16 A Concerning Scientology?
17 Q Before you joined, what was the extent of your
18 formal education?
19 A I finished high school and did some precollege
20 courses.
21 Q Okay. And --
22 A I also held a -- oh, God, I had --
23 Well, that's okay.
24 Q All right. What is the highest executive position
25 you held in the Church of Scientology?

242
1 A It's pretty much as Mr. Rosen stated in court in
2 front of the federal judge in Denver.
3 THE COURT: I don't care a thing about that.
4 This record.
5 A Okay. Corporately, I was the second highest
6 ecclesiastical person within Scientology, corporately.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q What was that called?
9 A Deputy inspector general.
10 THE COURT: What did you say, corporate
11 group --
12 THE WITNESS: Corporately -- deputy inspector
13 general was my position. Corporately, I was the
14 second in command in Scientology corporately. But
15 ecclesiastically, that's not the way it was.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q All right. What's it ecclesiastically?
18 A Ecclesiastically, since, I guess, 19 -- somewhere
19 around 1982, David Miscavige has been the ecclesiastical
20 leader of Scientology -- since -- yeah. Even after L. Ron
21 Hubbard passed -- even before L. Ron Hubbard passed, it was
22 David Miscavige.
23 And this gets complicated because -- and I'll tell
24 you why it's complicated -- because Scientology doesn't
25 present the truth --

243
1 THE COURT: I don't want to hear that.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay.
3 THE COURT: As a matter of fact, maybe we
4 should hear it. Because Mr. Dandar, the more you
5 hear, the more I would wonder if you'd ever call
6 this man as a witness. I mean, that's, right in and
7 of itself, going to show bias.
8 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Mr. Prince, what was your highest ecclesiastical
11 position?
12 A Deputy inspector general for the Religious
13 Technology Center.
14 Q Now, is that a corporate position or
15 ecclesiastical position?
16 A That is an ecclesiastical position. I also held a
17 corporate position as the treasurer on the board of
18 directors for the Religious Technology Center.
19 Q Can you tell the court what your duties were as
20 deputy inspector general?
21 A My duties -- I had many duties. One of my duties
22 was to ensure that all the entities -- all the Scientology
23 entities below the Religious Technology Center were properly
24 licensed to use the trademarks of Scientology.
25 Q What does that mean?

244
1 A Them signing licensing agreements and agreeing to
2 pay certain tithes to be able to be licensed to use the
3 trademarks. Which is basically -- the public works or the
4 books have symbols on them; trademarks, you know, for them
5 to use the books, technical volumes, the policy volumes, the
6 tapes, was one responsibility. And I was responsible for
7 making sure that those entities correctly used the
8 Scientology faith of auditing and the policy of its
9 management as one aspect.
10 A second aspect is, I had the responsibility for
11 ensuring that the trademarks of Dianetics and Scientology
12 were filed internationally in the majority of the countries
13 in the world.
14 Q What is your training -- what's the highest
15 training level that you reached in Scientology?
16 A Scientology has, basically, 12 levels of training
17 on its technical side, on its spiritual beliefs, if you
18 will. They go from 1 to 12. I -- and there's two aspects
19 to each level. One aspect is as an auditor, the person that
20 actually performs or interacts with the preclear, and the
21 person who then gets the folders after the sessions are
22 done, in Scientology, and studies them to see that
23 everything that was done on their preclear in auditing was
24 done exactly per the technical materials as written by L.
25 Ron Hubbard.

245
1 Q Okay. What did you do?
2 A I was a class 9 case supervisor, which means that
3 I was responsible for and trained in the expertise of
4 Scientology's upper-level material, their kind of secret
5 material, and auditing, that -- as well as everything below
6 it.
7 Q Okay. A class 9 case supervisor; how many
8 positions were higher than that when you were there?
9 A Three.
10 Q What are they?
11 A 10, 11, 12.
12 Q Oh, okay. And how well trained were you on the
13 technology of Scientology?
14 A I was very well trained. I was -- because of my
15 position in the Religious Technology Center -- the Religious
16 Technology Center is the highest ecclesiastical and
17 corporate center within Scientology, as far as the purity of
18 that technology. By my position and my experience even
19 prior to being in RTC, because I had a high -- high ability
20 to train people in Scientology, a high level of being able
21 to correctly audit and correctly supervise cases -- because
22 of that, I was selected to be in that position.
23 Q And who selected you to be in that position?
24 A David Miscavige, as approved by L. Ron Hubbard.
25 Q Now, what other duties did you --

246
1 Now, did you actually train people?
2 A I've trained many people, yes.
3 Q Who did -- what type of people did you train?
4 A Well, Alain Kartuzinski is one.
5 Q Defendant in this case?
6 A Yes.
7 Q What did you train him for?
8 A I did training on him for his -- what's called NED
9 for OTs level. That's a high level in Scientology where
10 they get into the more secret part of their belief system.
11 I trained him on that. I also -- and the other levels of
12 10, 11 and 12, while I was not myself trained or did the
13 courses in those levels, I was still able to correct
14 individuals who were trained in that, because I was familiar
15 enough with those materials myself. I just hadn't done the
16 courses. So I could train and correct anyone on any level
17 of Scientology's route -- which they called the Bridge.
18 Anywhere on the Bridge, I was able to train and correct
19 people on that Bridge.
20 Q Now, as a class 9 case supervisor, you said you
21 would review the PC folders of individuals?
22 A Correct.
23 Q And you would review their auditing sessions to
24 see it was done correctly?
25 A Correct.

247
1 Q And you did then become familiar with, according
2 to Scientology practices, what was necessary to be inside a
3 PC folder?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. And are there rules and regulations that
6 you're familiar with in reference to what is to be inside a
7 PC folder?
8 A Very much so. There's written exact and specific
9 policies that every person in Scientology that's pursuing
10 these training levels -- there is exact materials that state
11 how you proceed to audit a person; how you administrate the
12 files, who has the ability to review the files; and who is
13 designated to determine if there's errors in the folders.
14 Q And how long were you a case supervisor at any
15 level?
16 A Probably 14 years.
17 Q And were you an auditor?
18 A Yes, I was. I was a class 9 auditor as well.
19 Q Were you a class 9 auditor at the time you were a
20 class 9 case supervisor?
21 A Well, I was a class 9 auditor first and then I was
22 a class 9 supervisor.
23 Q Okay. So how many years were you an auditor of
24 any grade, all combined?
25 A During the entire time I was there, 16 years.

248
1 Q Okay. So you became a staff member of
2 Scientology, Church of Scientology, at the age of 21?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. And you stayed for 16 years?
5 A Correct.
6 Q So does that mean you left at the age of 37?
7 A Correct.
8 Q What other duties did you have as deputy inspector
9 general?
10 A I was also responsible for overseeing Church of
11 Scientology International, which is the corporate entity
12 located in Los Angeles, California. Actually, Gilman Hot
13 Springs -- that, in return, licenses the -- has the
14 licensing agreements and responsibilities for the purity of
15 the application of the technology to all other Scientology
16 organizations, such as the Flag Service Organization, Church
17 of Scientology West U.S., Church of Scientology South
18 Africa, Church of Scientology Denmark, Church of Scientology
19 Australia.
20 And Church of Scientology International, CSI --
21 there's another -- there's OSA section, Office of Special
22 Affairs, which is -- the Office of Special Affairs breaks
23 down into three departments, really. There is a legal, and
24 the legal section deals with anything to do with lawsuits,
25 building permits, anything to do with the legal system.

249
1 Next to that is public relations, which has to do with
2 making friendly contact in the environment, in the community
3 that they're in. And then you have an intelligence unit,
4 which is there primarily, as its stated purpose, to predict
5 trouble for Scientology before it happens, before it goes to
6 a legal situation, before it goes to a public relations
7 situation, so their intelligence section that monitors
8 anything that could potentially cause problems in these
9 other two departments.
10 Q And you oversaw all those departments?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And was that just in Los Angeles or worldwide?
13 A Worldwide.
14 Q Who was above you in seniority in reference to
15 your position, number two, as deputy inspector general,
16 while you were in that position?
17 A Okay. Now, that number two position was a
18 corporate position on paper. The -- ecclesiastically, the
19 first person, of course, was L. Ron Hubbard, until his
20 death. The second person was David Miscavige. Well, I take
21 that back. The second person, I came to find out later, was
22 maybe Pat and Annie Broeker together, who were personal
23 aides of L. Ron Hubbard.
24 Q Okay.
25 A Then David Miscavige. Vicky Aznaran, Marty

250
1 Rathburn, Vicky Aznaran and myself; Marc Yagger.
2 Q All right. How long were you deputy inspector
3 general?
4 A From 1983 until 1997.
5 Q And does every class 9 case supervisor become a
6 deputy inspector general?
7 A No, not at all.
8 Q Were there other deputy inspector generals?
9 A Yes, there were. But not for the specific things
10 that I took care of. There was one other one, for what they
11 called SU, Gold -- Golden area. There was a particular
12 deputy inspector general, just for the Golden-based, where
13 RTC is located, where Church of Scientology International is
14 located, where Golden Productions is located.
15 Q That's in the desert in California?
16 A Yes. In Gilman Hot Springs.
17 Q Okay.
18 A There was also a deputy inspector general MAA,
19 master at arms -- it's a navy term, nautical term -- of a
20 person that specifically supervised the ethics and integrity
21 of the members within the movement.
22 Q When you say you were in charge of the purity of
23 the tech, what does that mean?
24 A That means that ultimately I was responsible to
25 make sure that every auditor, every course supervisor, every

251
1 student, would study and learn and apply the L. Ron Hubbard
2 theories about auditing, bulletins, giving exact procedures.
3 It was my job to make sure that everyone could follow
4 procedure exactly.
5 Q Did you ever testify on behalf of Scientology,
6 Church of Scientology?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q And when was that?
9 A That was in either 1985 or 1986, in a RICO case
10 brought by the Church of Scientology and Religious
11 Technology Center against David Mayo, an individual, the
12 Advance Ability Center, a split organization that he started
13 after he himself left Scientology.
14 Q Okay.
15 A And somehow Lawrence Wollersheim was involved in
16 that as well.
17 Q What subject matter did you testify about on
18 behalf of the Church of Scientology?
19 A I testified on behalf of their -- was really
20 considered to be secret materials, NED for OTs, in that
21 David Mayo, his own NED for OT, which stands for New Era
22 Dianetics for Operating Thetans.
23 (A discussion was held off the record.)
24 A In that case, I testified as to the similarity
25 with what David Mayo was using against what was the actual

252
1 copyrighted published Scientology bulletins concerning that
2 subject.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q And which way did you testify? You compared the
5 two?
6 A Yes. I compared the two and gave the court an
7 opinion.
8 Q An opinion as to they were different or the same?
9 A They were virtually the same.
10 Q Okay. And how did you testify; as -- were you
11 designated or accepted or offered, I should say, by the
12 Church of Scientology as an expert?
13 A I was offered by Scientology to testify about
14 these scriptures, because I was very high ecclesiastically
15 as well as corporately, for the plaintiff, which was
16 Religious Technology Center, as well as Church of
17 Scientology International, against defendants David Mayo,
18 Advance Ability Center, Lawrence Wollersheim, et al.
19 Q In addition to that, have you consulted with
20 attorneys for the Church of Scientology in reference to your
21 expertise?
22 A Yes, I have.
23 Q And what cases or what matters?
24 A Again, it was the same case of the RICO suit
25 brought by those entities I mentioned before, against David

253
1 Mayo.
2 And as far as consulting with attorneys, this
3 was -- would be something that I would kind of do on a
4 regular basis, concerning the Lawrence Wollersheim -- one,
5 two, three and four cases out in California; the Mayo case.
6 There was a case against Sarge Gerbode, who was an ex-member
7 of Scientology, who was involved in a legal dispute with
8 Scientology.
9 Q And in reference to your consulting, what would
10 the subject matter be about?
11 A Well, the attorneys would want me to explain to
12 them what was happening; what it meant; what they were
13 looking at. Because Scientology has its own nomenclature.
14 They use words that you don't find in a dictionary.
15 Examples -- some examples of that would be, you know, you
16 got out Int.
17 Q What does that mean?
18 A That means a person has a phenomenon where,
19 spiritually, because Scientology believes that there's a
20 separation in the human form that we see here --
21 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I object to this.
22 A -- there's the body and the mind --
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 A -- and the spirit --
25 (Simultaneous speakers.)

254
1 THE COURT: All we really need here -- we don't
2 need him to render opinions; we simply need to know
3 his expert qualifications to do so.
4 MR. DANDAR: I just wanted --
5 THE COURT: It is relevant, however, whether he
6 testified as an expert for --
7 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
8 THE COURT: -- Scientology.
9 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
10 THE COURT: And I think you said once you could
11 show me that? Do you have that?
12 MR. DANDAR: I don't, but I --
13 Do you guys have it?
14 It's Bridge Publications versus FACTNet, in
15 federal court in Denver. I can fax it over to you
16 tomorrow. But --
17 THE COURT: That's good. You can fax it to me
18 tomorrow.
19 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I'll address that in
20 cross examination.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q And Mr. Prince, have you worked in your capacity
24 as deputy inspector general with Michael Hertzberg when you
25 were in that position?

255
1 A Yes.
2 Q And what respect?
3 A We would have weekly meetings at Office Services
4 to discuss pressing legal matters concerning all the
5 Scientology entities internationally. Mr. Hertzberg, as you
6 well know, represented Mary Sue in the DC case, and he was
7 always an attorney that specifically worked with --
8 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I strenuously --
9 A -- at this stage --
10 MR. MOXON: -- object --
11 (Simultaneous speakers.)
12 THE COURT: We don't need --
13 MR. MOXON: This is a perfect example of
14 what --
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 Sit down, Counsel.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q After you left Scientology, do you recall -- you
19 left Scientology on two different occasions, correct, as a
20 staff member?
21 A Correct.
22 Q And when you left the last time, do you recall
23 what year that was?
24 A I recall the year and the date. It was
25 October 31st, 1992.

256
1 Q Okay.
2 MR. MOXON: What was that? I'm sorry. I
3 didn't hear --
4 THE COURT: 10-31-92, I think he said.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Since leaving the staff position 10-31-92, were
7 you ever contacted by anyone representing the Church of
8 Scientology for consulting services?
9 A Yes. I was contacted by a gentleman named Michael
10 Suttor, who also worked in the Religious Technology Center,
11 to meet with Earle Cooley in Boston to consult with them on
12 the legal cases.
13 Q And who is Earle Cooley in Boston?
14 A He was Scientology's lead counsel during the '80s.
15 Q Okay.
16 A Late '80s.
17 Q Do you recall when you met with Mr. Cooley?
18 A It was in 1995.
19 Q Okay. And was it -- without going into the
20 subject matter, what -- generally what was the subject
21 matter? I mean, why did he want to talk to you?
22 A Well, he said he wanted to talk to me about legal
23 cases. What ended up happening, in fact, was something a
24 little different.
25 And you know, he asked me -- I guess he -- they

257
1 wanted me to reaffirm that I was a Scientologist; to
2 reaffirm that -- you know, that Scientology had helped me
3 because I had had errors, you know, in my past before, and
4 that Scientology only worked for the good of everyone. And
5 I think this was tape recorded. And they wanted to also
6 reaffirm that no one had contacted me from a case that was
7 being brought by Victoria and Richard Aznaran, who brought a
8 case that later settled. They wanted to make sure that no
9 one contacted me to testify in the RICO case against David
10 Mayo. And they wanted to make sure I was not contacted in
11 any government or police agencies to testify against
12 Scientology.
13 Q And did Mr. Cooley, on behalf of the Church of
14 Scientology, pay you for your consultation?
15 A Yes, he did.
16 Q And how much did he pay you?
17 A I think, after taxes, it was $2,700.
18 Q So who deducted the taxes? Mr. Cooley?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Since that time, have you testified in any case?
21 A I've given written testimony and I've -- well,
22 I've given written testimony in a case by Dennis Ehrlich,
23 with Morrison and Forrester in San Francisco. I've
24 testified in that case, which has since settled. I've
25 testified in the Wollersheim -- I've given written testimony

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1 in the Wollersheim Ford case in California.
2 Q When you say written testimony, you talking about
3 deposition or affidavit?
4 A Affidavits and depositions.
5 Q And when you were deposed in those cases, were you
6 testifying as a fact witness or an expert witness?
7 A When I testified in the FACTNet case, I testified
8 as an expert with knowledge of the facts of the case.
9 Q And in reference to Lisa McPherson, can any
10 layperson just look at her PC folders and understand them?
11 A Not at all.
12 Q Why is that?
13 A Because, again, Scientology has its own
14 nomenclature; it has its own words that you will not find in
15 any dictionary except for a Scientology dictionary. And
16 it's a whole separate language that you literally learn
17 paralleled with your training that you get. The more higher
18 training, the more different Scientology words you learn.
19 MR. DANDAR: Now, Judge, I need somebody to
20 help, here, if I can ask you a question.
21 THE COURT: You may.
22 MR. DANDAR: All right. I believe I've gone
23 through his qualifications in reference to
24 Scientology technology and his knowledge about that.
25 THE COURT: I would agree.

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1 I would just have one question. And maybe he
2 doesn't know this.
3 Do you recall ever having a lawyer in a court
4 case, in court, asking a judge to accept you as an
5 expert and allow you to render opinions, and a judge
6 saying "he may render his opinion" or anything like
7 that?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. A couple of times.
9 One time was, again, in this RICO suit brought
10 by the Religious Technology Center and Church of
11 Scientology International, where I gave testimony.
12 It was a copyright issue. And I compared what David
13 Mayo was using --
14 THE COURT: You're as bad as a lawyer. You
15 give me a lot more than I want.
16 So that one and --
17 THE WITNESS: And then in the instant case,
18 here, in front of Judge Moody, I've given testimony,
19 and I've been in hearings and I've worked on --
20 THE COURT: Judge Moody accepted you as an
21 expert witness?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, I think that's --
24 MR. DANDAR: Do you want to get into any
25 payments and things like that? Do we need to do

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1 that?
2 Okay.
3 THE COURT: No.
4 MR. DANDAR: That's all I have.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 CROSS EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. MOXON:
8 Q Mr. Prince, you say some judge actually asked you
9 if you were an expert; some judge qualified you as an expert
10 in some case?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Who was that judge?
13 A Mariana Pfaeizer.
14 Q And she told you you were qualified as an expert?
15 A Well, I don't have the record in front of me, but
16 I know that I was qualified to give testimony as a
17 representative of the Church of Scientology Religious
18 Technology Center, on behalf of CSI, to determine whether or
19 not --
20 MR. MOXON: I think he's answered my question.
21 May I approach the witness?
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 BY MR. MOXON:
24 Q Would you please take a look at this deposition
25 excerpt I've given to you? This is a reporter's transcript

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1 for November 22nd, 1985, correct?
2 A Correct.
3 Q And it's in the case of Religious Technology
4 Center versus Wollersheim?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Is this the case you're referring to?
7 A Yes.
8 Q You see Direct Examination, Jesse Prince?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. Would you read for the record, starting
11 at --
12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, may I approach so I can see
13 what they're looking at?
14 THE COURT: Sure.
15 BY MR. MOXON:
16 Q Starting at page 282 -- let me read it and you
17 tell me if this is accurate.
18 Who's Mr. Treman, by the way?
19 A He was a lawyer that represented Mr. Mayo, I
20 believe.
21 Q Not sure who he was?
22 A I'm not sure now who he is. I mean, that happened
23 in '85, '86.
24 Q Okay. So you don't remember who the lawyer was on
25 the other side of this case that you were --

262
1 A Gary -- I think one of the lawyer's name was Gary
2 Bright, and then there was another one there as well. But I
3 do recall Mr. Gary Bright.
4 Q Okay. But you don't know who Mr. Treman is?
5 A I don't recall.
6 Q Okay. Well, Mr. Treman, for the record, is the --
7 was indeed the defense attorney. And Mr. Treman, after
8 Mr. Prince's testimony, part of it says, quote, Objection.
9 Move to strike that conclusion. And lack of foundation. He
10 is not testifying as an expert." Isn't that what that says?
11 A Correct.
12 MR. DANDAR: I'll object, because it's out of
13 context. I have no idea what came before that.
14 BY MR. MOXON:
15 Q And the court says, "You must remember the court
16 has looked at the material too, so that may stand."
17 A Right.
18 Q Right?
19 Okay. Now, is it still your -- your testimony
20 that you -- you were allowed as an expert in that case?
21 A Yes. Yes, Counsel.
22 THE COURT: And I would agree with Mr. Dandar.
23 You know, who knows what that lawyer is referring
24 to? I think what will help us is to look at the
25 testimony --

263
1 MR. MOXON: Well --
2 THE COURT: -- and see whether or not his
3 credentials were proper and whether the lawyer
4 proffered him as an expert.
5 MR. MOXON: They weren't. I can tell you they
6 weren't. I can represent that to the court.
7 THE COURT: Well, that doesn't necessarily give
8 us our answer. That's probably what you have. That
9 doesn't help.
10 MR. MOXON: I didn't know this was going to
11 happen today, so --
12 THE COURT: I know. I didn't either.
13 MR. MOXON: -- I'm doing this impromptu. But
14 I'm representing that this is just not true.
15 BY MR. MOXON:
16 Q Is there any --
17 THE COURT: I didn't either. But I must say, I
18 generated it as we've gone along. This has not
19 progressed the way I exactly -- I thought it would.
20 But I think this is where we need to go.
21 MR. MOXON: Yeah.
22 BY MR. MOXON:
23 Q Now, are you claiming that, in the FACTNet case,
24 you were permitted by the court to testify as an expert?
25 A You know, in the FACTnet case, I actually never

264
1 testified. All I did was submit affidavits, I believe, or
2 declarations. And I think that the attorney, Daniel
3 Leipold, made representations I was an expert to the court.
4 But you know, I don't have those records before me. I
5 can't --
6 Q But you're not really sure about that, are you?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q So as an expert, you don't know if you were an
9 expert or not?
10 A No, that's not -- that's inaccurate.
11 Q So you think Mr. Leipold may have done that, but
12 you're not sure?
13 A I'm not positive, but I'm like 90 percent sure he
14 did that.
15 MR. MOXON: Well, I'd proffer to the court that
16 that didn't happen, and I'd like to see it.
17 BY MR. MOXON:
18 Q In each of your declarations that you filed, you
19 stated at the beginning, "This declaration is of my own
20 personal knowledge, and if called on to testify to, I could
21 and would be competent and able