Title: Re: DM taking the money and running? Nope.
Stacy Brooks <stacybrooks@mciworld.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:05:37 -0500

On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:20:41 -0500, ThomLove <ThomLovenetmail@netscape.net>

>Hello Stacy;
>Well, my experience in the CofS I've posted several times, and I just
>don't want to do it all again, at least not in any detail. I've been in
>the CofS for nearly 30 years, and I trained up to Class VIII, most of
>the courses two or three times. I've done all the internships up to that
>level. I've audited only-God-knows-how-many-thousands-of-hours in the SO
>HGCs. Many of those up in RTC and Int Management were pc's of mine, but
>this was years ago, so I don't know who is where now. Marc Yager was a
>pc of mine, which is the only name I can actually place in the
>management. Many RTCers were pcs of mine, many of them, including one of
>the recent Sr. C/Ss' of AO, Sandy W. 

Hi Thom,

Sorry I hadn't read your earlier posts about your history. Gosh, maybe we know
each other. Poor Marc Yager, last I heard he was under house arrest in a
cottage out at Int. He's virtually disappeared now. And Sandy Wilhere is
another tragic story. She had a serious automobile accident, after which
Miscavige ordered her husband Greg to divorce her (he was Inspector General at
the time, directly under DM) because she was too PTS and would be an
enturbulating influence on Greg. DM busted her off Senior C/S Gold and stuck
her in the galley as a cook. Greg ate at the table with DM and Shelly and
Sandy wasn't even allowed to speak to him. I don't know what has happened to
her since then. 
>So I got to know a lot of them on their way up quite intimately. None of
>them were 'evil'. Most of them were actually quite nice and friendly,
>and very honest and excited, and were persons I would have been quite
>comfortable with as a senior. (some of them were my senior, as a matter
>of fact!) 

You're absolutely right, these people were bright, honest, good-hearted
people. There is a weeding-out process that goes on at the top, as you may be
aware. The only ones who can survive under a regime like Miscavige's are those
who are willing to turn away from their own humanity and compassion for the
sake of complying with orders that are directly counter to the very reasons
they got into Scientology. I found myself in this utterly untenable position
so I am familar with the threshhold one inevitably faces. DM was ordering me
to do things that were directly contrary to the technology that I was in
Scientology to apply. So what should I do? Comply with his orders, even though
complying would require that I turn my back on the tech? Or refuse to comply,
even though refusing would certainly mean dire punishment and the end of any
thought of advancement in the Scientology ranks? 

I chose the punishment. Losing my own integrity, selling out the tech, was not
an option for me. But for some, the fear of punishment is too great, and the
perks and creature comforts of a high position are too appealing. Make no
mistake about it though; as far as I am concerned, once someone crosses that
threshhold they are no longer a human being  as far as I am concerned. They
become something else. They become an inhuman monster. 

Some of these people who started out as good people have crossed that
threshhold, Thom, and I cannot in all good conscience give them the benefit of
the doubt any more. I have seen what they are willing to do and it is
>I've also met the SO Arrogants, those who have contempt and disdain for
>any other viewpoint than theirs. They were the potential crooks who may
>be of the sort to which you refer. Their idea of handling was via
>nullification and evaluation. Their comm cycle knew only wrath, and they
>destroyed everyone who didn't toe their line. These I knew quite
>intimately as well, and who I kept a special eye on when I had dealings
>with them outside of session, for obvious reasons.

The ones you call the "SO Arrogants" -- the real hard core ones -- have
crossed that threshhold that I was describing earlier. Nowadays, it is DM who
is forcing people to choose between being what they thought a Scientologist
was supposed to be and becoming a ruthless monster who will follow whatever
orders they are given. But I don't believe it started with DM. DM was
personally trained by Hubbard in the latter years when Hubbard's mind was

I apologize to those Scientologists reading this who will feel I am insulting
Hubbard, but I am afraid the documented evidence and eye-witness accounts of
his behavior in Dunedin, then in New York, later at the confidential base in
the California desert known by the handle "Rifle," and still later at the
ranch in Creston show a consistent pattern of conduct which points to a
deterioration of his sanity. 

I know that DM is running the Scientology empire just as he believes Hubbard
trained him to do. DM told me so countless times. Once he interrupted a
screaming tirade of obscenities at the Executive Council at ASI when he
realized I was horrified at his behavior. He turned to me and said, "Listen,
Stacy, if you think I yell loudly, you should have heard the old man [his term
of endearment for LRH]. When he got mad at someone you could hear him
screaming for miles. I'll never be able to scream the way he used to." 

For me this was a window into DM's pathetic psyche. He was like a frightened
little child trying desperately to win the favor of his father, and it was
clear to me that Hubbard had taken on the role of father for DM. But as much
as I may understand, or at least think I understand, the underlying reasons
for DM's pathological behavior, it doesn't change the fact that his behavior
is pathological. 

And it doesn't change the fact that he is able to turn formerly good people
into criminals willing to do whatever they are told to appease this madman. 
>DM and his crew I never knew personally, not really; the last I saw of
>them was when we went to see the original 'Highlander' movie in
>Hollywood one afternoon, a couple of decades ago. So, of them you could
>be right. 
>But, the vast majority of those 'up there' are not knowingly scamming
>anybody, and are sincerely trying to make it go right. Many leave, as
>they cannot tolerate the criminality, and they know they cannot change
>things from the inside. They are the ones out here in the FZone building
>up an Alternative Bridge. Many others just stay and do what they can
>given the condition they are in, and are not themselves involved in any

No, this is where we disagree. Thom, you can take a person who is sincerely
trying to make things go right and transform them, through fear, abuse and
punishment, into an uncaring, unfeeling automaton willing to do whatever they
are told. I am afraid that this is what is now at the top of Scientology. I
think DM was transformed in this way by Hubbard himself. (Others who witnessed
DM's transformation may disagree with me on this and I would be interested to
hear from those people. But that is my understanding, from the data I have.)

I think Marty Rathbun has been transformed into someone that DM can trust to
do his bidding after years of abuse. He blew at one point trying to escape
from DM but was brought back and put through a horrific RPF experience.
Believe me, the RPF can transform a kind-hearted person into a monster. I have
seen it happen with my own eyes. Kind-heartedness is viewed as
"reasonableness" by Miscavige and it is not tolerated. Marty was a nice guy
but he has been turned into a criminal by DM, and today you cannot find a
trace of that formerly kind-hearted person. I have looked straight into his
eyes and I have seen a bleak wasteland there. The old Marty is so buried that
I am not sure he can ever be found again. 

Mike Rinder is the same. Mike was a good person but to survive under DM's
reign of terror he has had to become a monster, devoid of compassion and
utterly without conscience. Norman Starkey is another one. Ben Shaw. Rick
Moxon. There are others. 

But again, I do not believe this horrific inhumanity began with DM, and I
think this is an important point for Scientologists to come to terms with. 

Mark Bunker is working on a videotaped interview of a person who was an
intelligence operative in the Guardian's Office for years until it finally
made him so sick he had to quit. Obviously, this lack of conscience at a
certain echelon of Scientology is not something new to Miscavige' regime. It
has existed at the top of Scientology for as long as Scientology has existed
as an organization. 

In the old days it was the Guardian's Office staff that were required to cross
that threshhold from decency to corruption. Miscavige has successfully spread
the myth that this ruthless corruption was coming from Mary Sue. But Mary Sue
was only a loyal follower. Her actions reflected her husband's orders --
everyone in the Guardian's Office, including me, knew that. The orders for the
break-ins and other illegal activities came directly from LRH through MSH and
down the command lines to the Guardian's Office. The only reason LRH didn't go
to jail himself after the 1977 FBI raid was that his wife and the indicted
Guardian's Office staff were willing to cover up his involvement and take the
rap for him. 

So this ruthlessness that we see in DM is the same ruthlessness Hubbard
possessed. It is my personal opinion that the ruthlessness exhibited by the
Scientology organization is an extension of an aspect of Hubbard's own mind. I
don't think it is the only aspect of his mind. I think he also had positive
aspects. But this ruthlessness was certainly one aspect of this man. I am
afraid I have to agree with Judge Breckinridge on this point. I think he put
it very well. 

This lack of conscience, lack of compassion, lack of human kindness -- this is
the aspect of Scientology that has to go. I have no problem with any of the
rest of Scientology, but this viciousness and deceit has to go. And for DM and
the others who have crossed the threshold from decency to corruption, they
will have to go before those who honestly want to use the Scientology
technology to help themselves and others will be free to do so. 

>The idea that those such as DM and NS could be so directly involved in
>knowingly destroying things I find a little incredible, but anything is
>possible. I've been surprised by the SO Arrogants before, and I could
>easily be surprised again.

I think the problem is that when one has sold one's soul to the extent DM,
Norman and others have done in recent years (a Scientologist would say they
have accumulated far too many overts), one tends to lose sight of the original
ideals they may have embraced in the beginning. DM has wandered so far afield
of whatever good he may have intended that at this point I am afraid his own
corruption and fear for his own hide will override anything else. 

Over to you…..


>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:11:56 -0500, ThomLove <ThomLovenetmail@netscape.net>
>> wrote:
>> >Hello Fred;
>> >
>> >"Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rxenu ixenu cxenu exenu Xenu" wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ©Anti-Cult® - www.users.wineasy.se/noname/
>> >> <The.Galactic.Federation@ThePentagon.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >The cult has its big funds in the war chest funds. They will not touch
>> >> >that money, other than for the total war. It's a total war they expect,
>> >> >and this cult does not plan on losing. When or if they are about to lose,
>> >> >they will release the billion dollar funds, to buy the real weapons. Yes,
>> >> >that means the nukes from Russia, or North Korea, or even from the U.S
>> >> >military.
>> >>
>> >> Setting aside the _paranoid_ rhetoric for a moment, <smile> that's not
>> >> the way these things go, though, Anti-C.  There is a point that gets
>> >> reached when the ringleaders pack up as much money as they can carry
>> >> or stuff into off-shore bank accounts, then they flee for some country
>> >> that has no extradiction policies that could be used to leverage them
>> >> back to the United States to stand trial.
>> >>
>> >> L. Ron Hubbard did just that a number of times, draining bank accounts
>> >> to store the haul in shoe boxes, skipping town in the middle of the
>> >> night -- and he did so on several occasions.  When the Law got too
>> >> close, he took his money and his ringleaders, together with the most
>> >> brainwashed of his followers, and fled to the high seas.
>> >>
>> >> That's going to happen with David Miscavage, Moxon, Heber, Kobrin,
>> >> Rinder et al., too, I would expect.  Once the end really twiggs in
>> >> their hearts and they know the jig is up, they'll not try to squeeze
>> >> more out of their rubes; they'll run just like Hubbard did.
>> >
>> >Fred, you and so many others who are critics really don't 'quite' get
>> >it. The above scenario won't happen.
>> >
>> >You must realize that the DMs and SO Arrogants are NOT thinking the way
>> >you and others think they are thinking. They are NOT out to deliberately
>> >scam others. They honestly believe what they are doing is right. They
>> >are not 'knowingly' committing crimes. They are 'knowingly' doing what
>> >they honestly think needs to be done to further the course of the CofS.
>> >They are just being 'arrogant' about their importance and the role the
>> >CofS plays in the cosmos. They are not sitting back thinking, "Well,
>> >we'd better plan on going now, and where can I salt away a few million
>> >of this money I've scammed?!" That is NOT what is going on in their
>> >heads.
>> >
>> >The only reason they'd go into hiding is not to sneak away with money,
>> >but to be unfindable, but still continue on working IN the SO hierarchy.
>> >
>> >This mental attitude is very different than those who are knowingly
>> >running a scam, such as a boiler operation, and taking off with the
>> >money is planned out as part of the final act. That is not the way it is
>> >here.
>> >
>> >If they do 'disappear', it will only be to avoid the hassle of legal
>> >mumbo jumbo getting in the way of their daily operations. That is all.
>> >They will not 'take the money and run'. That is not in the cards. They
>> >may well go into hiding, for reasons I've stated above, but that is all.
>> >
>> >To think otherwise of them is to misunderstand your opponent.
>> >
>> >Hope this clarifies things for you and the others.
>> >ThomLove
>> Thom,
>> Were you in Int management? Have you actually worked with Miscavige and his
>> people?
>> I am asking because I did work directly with them and I believe they do
>> realize exactly how they are scamming the membership, exactly how they are
>> damaging people, and exactly how they are utterly destroying people's lives.
>> It was not my experience that Miscavige, Starkey and the others "believed" in
>> this thing.
>> It was my experience that they had nothing but contempt for the people in the
>> Sea Org who were stupid enough to work 18 and sometimes 24 hours a day for
>> virtually nothing. They had nothing but contempt for the wealthy public
>> Scientologists who could be coerced into turning over literally millions of
>> dollars at a time for the sake of defending "the Bridge." They had nothing but
>> contempt for celebrities like John Travolta, whose pc folder information they
>> used to sit around the conference table at Author Services, Inc. and giggle
>> about.
>> It was my experience that they are knowingly running a scam. I don't actually
>> think Fred's imagined scenario is so far off base.
>> What was your experience in Scientology? Sea Org? Int? I'm not challenging
>> you. I'm curious to know what experience you are drawing upon in coming up
>> with your views.
>> Stacy