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Waki Zoellner, Scientologist in Germany since 1968, in his house in Gmund on Tegernsee on February 1997
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The Waki Zoellner Interview
The most highly trained Scientologist in Germany and friend of Gottfried Helnwein in Gmund on February 17, 1997
R: I have heard that you founded SC (Scientology) Germany in 1968. Is that right?
Z: No, no, I did not found it. I met a man who was in California for three years, and on the flight back he spent a couple of days in New York and looked around the city. He frequently looked upward, and anybody in New York who looks upward is a stranger, otherwise he would not be looking up. He was addressed on the street by Scientologists in Manhattan. They had recognized him immediately as a stranger and invited him in to take the test. And that is what he did. He found it so interesting that he started with the SC immediately. On the way back to Munich he stopped in England and learned auditing there and the first Grade of Scientology. I bumped into him the second day he got back to Munich. That was in 1968. And he asked, "What are you doing, where were you?" Back and forth like that and I said, "I'm driving to college now and I am starting a new course of study." In my circle of acquaintances there were always people with marriage problems. At that time I was happily married, but knowing was everything. Everybody wanted to know how I did it, but I was no expert in marriage. I said, "Dammit already, I have no clue how you do it." But I wanted to learn how professionally. I wanted to study psychology and that is what I told him.
He scolded me: "Are you crazy! I know something else which is much better than anything you've ever done before." I had tried out everything on the fringes of science previously, included parapsychology things, everything. I was interested. "Can you show me?" I asked. "Yes, come with me." And that his how I got my first auditing session. Do you know what that is?
R: By him?
Z: By him, from him. Going far beyond his horizon, but naturally I didn't know that at the time.
R: In his private residence?
Z: By him in his apartment, where he had just moved in.
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R: And did he use the e-meter or was it without the e-meter?
Z: He had brought it from England, in a little wooden case.
R: But not as professional as they have today.
Z: Oh well, much simpler. But it worked good enough for me to have a great session which fascinated me so much that I went home and wrote down everything right away. I wrote down what happened in a 4 hour session. Which, of course, one is not supposed to do. But I didn't know all that at the time.
R: You simply thought ...
Z: I thought it was so interesting that everybody had to find out about it. I invited 50 journalists over and distributed the mimeographed pages and thought when they read that, they'll say wow, crazy.
R: How old were you then?
Z: I'm 62 now. In 1968 I was 33 years old.
R: But practically speaking, how does one get from there to building a Scientology organization of sorts, or getting others to go along?
Z: That had several advantages, simply because one wants one's friends to go along with what one thinks is right. That is similar to you, because you want others to also be able to see this. The better you know somebody, the more you want him to do that, too.
Z: The main thing is that there is much to be gained. Internally things ran differently though, naturally everything was not so well, the people were not there, staff was not there, who could have delivered that.
R: They had to come from England and Copenhagen.
Z: No, at that time there were only about 20 or so people in Copenhagen. The pages had to be written out by hand, or poorly mimeographed pages were passed out.
R: Then there was also the first Communication Course, that was given by an SC association from Frankfurt.
Z: At that time they didn't have that yet.
R: I see.
Z: Beginning in 1970, we offered a Communication Course in Munich. And I also helped out with that a little. That was given by a man who came special from the USA. That was the big specialist for us, because he already knew it. I thought the Communication Course was so great I took it three times. You don't do that, either. When you do it, then you've done it; you don't do it again and again because that means you didn't do something right.
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But that was the only time that I repeated a course to this day just because I liked it. Was very exciting.
R: Didn't you go to Vienna now and then where Gottfried Helnwein established this Celebrity Center in 1974?
Z: They didn't have that yet.
R: So in Germany you were the first Scientologist and the first organization was in Munich?
Z: In the German-speaking world. First came Munich, then came Frankfurt. Then came an old lady, a real old lady now who did that and then came Heilbronn.
R: Where Renate Helnwein comes from. She came from Heilbronn.
Z: Yeah, right, she joined then, too.
R: At the time she was in Copenhagen, and in 1975 she went through Copenhagen to Vienna in the Helnwein Center.
Z: Yes, then came Switzerland and Austria. That led everybody to us in Munich to study.
R: It was for that reason that Gottfried was in Munich in 1972/73. That is where you would have had to have met him for the first time.
Z: No, I didn't. I met him for the first time in FLAG in Clearwater.
I wasn't interested in him. At the time this type of art he did did not interest me. At the time I was still doing abstract things. Objective painting makes me want to gag. That had a tendency to scare me off and helped keep the distance from a painter like Helnwein. I was in another sphere, as we say.
R: So there really wasn't anything to say.
Z: Zip, really zip, outside of that I would have said that is an ass.
R: Nevertheless you were colleagues, better said colleagues in faith, so you had nothing at all to say to each other?
Z: That is something different, there one has something to talk about. But I could not talk with him about people with wounds on their face. It neither fascinated nor interested me.
R: Um hmm.
Z: I have lived my life. I know these kind of people in the original and do not have to stare at drawings of them and be flabbergasted or shocked or ashamed that something like that exists, or anything like that.
R: What I don't understand, is why did Helnwein deny his membership in Scientology?
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Z: I don't know why. I would not have done it that way, but he simply did.
R: I believe it has something to do with him wanting to go the official art route or museum route.
Z: I also did that at the time and talked to everybody.
R: He could have done that, too. He is indeed able to convince people about himself.
Z: He could have, but he didn't.
R: Haven't you ever talked with him about it, why he didn't do that?
Z: That is his business. He would be the one that knows.
R: Couldn't you have influenced him by asking him, why don't you make this public, why don't you say what you find good about it or something and say so? If I were a Scientologist, I would say, OK, I'm here too, even if there's criticism, but I'll talk about the subject and I'll say what has helped me and what has been good for me. And you can believe me or not.
Z: You can't make him into a martyr. Either he is or he is not.
R: He is the one who has made himself into a martyr..
Z: Certainly, but that was part of his path.
R: But his path has led here ..
Z: The way I see it, and this is my personal observation, a little bit of this is going on inside him.
R: That he wants to be a martyr?
Z: I have been thinking, even these gruesome pictures, they also have something to do with him. Of course, otherwise they would not interest him.
R: At the moment he fits right in with that concept.
Z: He apparently is suffering in life and expresses that. He expresses these things for people who think they are suffering in life and I am doing exactly the opposite. Because of that we don't have any common denominator.
R: The press spokesman from Scientology, Alex Jones, issued a press release on January 14, 1997 that Helnwein is in the USA, in Washington in the State Department, and is complaining there of how he is persecuted as a Scientologist in Germany.
Z: Yes, of course he is a Scientologist. I've told you that twice already, that I know him as a Scientologist. I have to say, so what, really? How am I going to do him any good?
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R: That you say it explicitly.
Z: He should do that himself if he wants it, and if he doesn't want it, then surely, in his universe, he has a reason for that.
R: But wouldn't it help the Scientology Organization more if he finally went public and admitted it. He still has his popularity.
Z: He would be more helping himself, that's what I would say. That has to do with personal integrity. My sentiments are that there is no greater crime than to violate your own personal integrity. I know of nothing which has a worse effect on oneself. That is what one punishes himself the worst for. Just to name one example, when one wants to become a doctor, but the fact is that he would rather be an architect or something, then he is punishing himself his entire life. Because he didn't have the courage to be a doctor, because he would not have received the support all those semesters from his father, the architect, or something like that. That is how I could conceive of it.
R: Or he wants to punish himself for something.
Z: Yeah, sure... Helnwein is a fascinating man, he is a magnificent artist. Whether one likes or doesn't like this type of art is subjective. But he is a phenomenon, yes, I'll have to say that, that is remarkable.
R: Certainly, I've gotten to know him rather well, in certain points I like him a lot. Yes, I think, above all, it was the love of Carl Barks which tied us together.
I got to know him in 1987, so 10 years ago, when I went to see him in Vienna in the Wuerthle Galley. And that was just coincidence. Then I called him up and said, hey look, I like what you're doing, at the time I really didn't know anything else about him, just simply saw his pictures and I found them totally thrilling. And then he invited me to Burgbrohl, and from the first moment we understood each other very well. His ideas were rather similar to mine. Not on the theme of Scientology, he left that completely alone with me, that was not a topic of discussion for us. For us, we dealt with these kinds of art projects, we did these things together. So we rambled around together for a few years with these projects, he is rather involved in these things.
Z: That is his right, why shouldn't he?
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Z: Everybody dramatizes his own case, and they do it as loudly as possible, otherwise they couldn't exist among 6 billion people. That is just the way things are.
R:Yes, absolutely. And in that manner, I brought a whole slough of celebrities to him at Burgbrohl, because they wanted to meet him, too. Reinhold Mesner, Michael Jackson, Ute Lemper and other celebrities whom he also met later and photographed. He even met Michael Jackson several times. Now that he has contact with him through Lisa Marie Presley, he doesn't need me any more for Michael Jackson. But 1991 or so Jackson came to know his first wife, an SC, I think it was even through Helnwein; after that he did everything with Jackson direct, I was out then. Those were exciting times for both of us. Nevertheless we broke up in 1994 because of SC and my Barks book. He was incredibly envious and tolerated nobody besides himself.
He never forgave me for putting my own book together. He swallowed my SC criticism, but not my book about his idol, Carl Barks.
Z: Ha ha.
R: No, honestly, that's the way it really was. Because my book was reviewed in Spiegel magazine and his wasn't. No, it was not reviewed, and that was the big joke. There was an article about Helnwein in there about the Barks exhibition - over two pages. With a photo of him and his book.
Z: In Spiegel?
R: In Spiegel. It was only about Gottfried Helnwein, about his things and about how great he is. But my book was not even reviewed, it was only briefly mentioned at the bottom. That was all. He went completely overboard. He called up Spiegel and put all gears in motion against me. Completely overboard, still today. But I really thought that was a shame. A person could get along with him quite well and he fulfilled his obligations - always. He is extremely correct, his wife, too. From my side of the fence, I have also done everything properly. He had gained a very large advantage through my work.
Z: He is just not that simple. You have to say that.
R: But where is this going?
Z: What did you have in mind?
R: What I'm thinking, what does Scientology have to do with art? What does Scientology bring to certain people? What does it not bring them? Is the
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criticism justified that comes "from outside"? Is it not justified? What is true about it and what is not? It is a crazy bunch of secret stuff on the whole and that makes the whole thing mysterious for the media. That is just like in art, exactly the same. There everybody talks about the OSA, the SC secret service and how they deal severely with critics and even want to murder some of them and this and that.
Z: That's all trash.
R: I have read that in the USA Scientology put out these murder contracts, where SC attorneys got together ...
Z: That is definitely a murder contract invented by Hartwig. Let's take me, for example. I have six jobs I hold down and I do Scientology and at night time I call up Hartwig and threaten her? When am I supposed to do that? What kind of nonsense is that? I also, of course, have very many acquaintances and relatives who are not Scientologists, but who I don't encourage to do that. If they want to do it, they can do it, if not, they should leave it be. And they don't understand everything, either. The campaign blown out of proportion against these couple of Scientologists. That is only 0.036% in Germany that do that and they are attacked, in a way, as public enemy nr. 1. If Mr. Bluem says, "SC, the money-laundering establishment, the criminal association." Sure, with what right does he say that. He can't prove it. I have experienced it here on the spot. If I receive commissions because I bring somebody into SC, naturally I have to pay taxes on that. Even if it's only 120 marks. Naturally that is declared as income and naturally it is accounted for by the ORG in Munich whether the tax collector got the 120 marks or not. Yes, even if I were 1 mark short they would get me and the others too, right away.
R: The tax collectors are not getting rich from that. Neither is the revenue minister talking about that.
Z: SC in Munich and Hamburg have been very thoroughly investigated. Right down to the last folder. Somebody does not go to a doctor and look at the secret folders, or his patients' documents.
R: They even look through these internal discussions, even the auditing sessions?
Z: If they find them, yes.
R: That would not be proper.
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Z: That is really not proper. I don't think people go around and open up mail boxes and and slit open the envelopes. There is kind of a mail confidentiality which is respected, even if a check is in there.
R: But what does the OSA really do in Munich?
Z: Here is what I can tell you: they defend from all attacks. They maintain the legal department, there are two attorneys in it and the rest are people that assist. Those are staff members, members who do the entire thing for a tiny wage out of sheer idealism and really defend this Hubbard technology because they know how good it is. They sense it, many don't know it because they have done it too little themselves.
R: Isn't Rainer Weber the Director of OSA? Or Claudia Kauer?
Z: Yes, it possible those are their names.
R: Is SC an organization or a sect?
Z: "Sect" is defined in Herder's the following way. Herder is the Catholic lexicon, a Catholic publishing house, there it says under sect: separating from something bigger, older. And now the Catholic Church has separated from the Jewish faith and the Evangelical from the Catholic. So there are two or three sects, depending on how you look at it. The Scientologists are the only ones who have not separated from something else. So, according to this definition, they are not a sect at all. That is what one could say.
R: So SC is an organization, we'll call it an organization for now. Is it really possible to practice criticism inside their organization?
Z: Yes, of course.
R: You could tell David Miscavige, listen up, my man, some things here in Germany, or what you are doing in the USA against Germany at the moment, they are a bit too much, and I'm really upset.
Z: Yes, of course. There is even an established system of feedback with us. They are called "recalls."
R: "Recalls," how's that?
Z: There is a whole "recall" technology. As a member, you can write down what doesn't suit you. To be sure, you have to prove why it doesn't suit you. You have to write it down.
R: But then wouldn't they get bothered about their Munich Organization, which they're a part of.
Z: Certainly no. Really not.
R: Helnwein publicly said, "I shit on Scientology!"
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May he say that without getting in trouble with Miscavige? Won't anything happen to him?
Z: What should happen to him? It's his opinion, after all, and this opinion, perhaps it cost him a lot of auditing money to clear this opinion up.
R: Does that mean they'll get him "on lines" again?
Z: No, you couldn't say that. Instead they'll audit him in "Flag" in Clearwater.
R: Also in Duesseldorf?
Z: I don't think he can be audited here, because the higher steps cannot be audited here. And if he wants to be free again, he will have to sort out what he thinks in some way or form so that he knows what he wants. Then if it turns out that his opinion is that "I shit on Scientology" that would be a contradiction if he is holding both cans and being audited. This contradiction in him is visible as charge on the e-meter.
Z: Yes, certain, the needle will give a read with him. Then any charge which he has which comes up during auditing will be made "flat," as we call it, that means audited until his charge, Helnwein, is no longer charge.
R: So no engrams, or what?
Z:Yes, but an engram is something else again. An engram is a charge. That is a mental charge.
R: Past histories?
Z: Wherever they may come from.
R: And then this charge is gone again when he says, "OK, for this or that reason I have these problems at the moment and then they discuss that, or does he have to tell about them?
Z: There is really nothing discussed. He is the only one who says something.
R: I would be the one doing the listening and you do the talking.
Z: Yes, that would work.
R: So how long does that go on?
Z: Until right after the charge has gone.
R: And the one who is doing it can see it?
Z: That is what the auditor sees. That is what he's trained for.
R: And that is his job?
Z: That is his entire job. To guide the pre-clear or PC so that he's rid of his charge. This charge is what hinders him
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from being free. In every case.
R: But you aren't a pre-clear, since you're already OT8?
Z: I am pre-OT.
R: But you've gone all the way up.
Z: All the same you call that pre-clear, since I am not a full OT.
R: Isn't OT8 the first proper OT?
Z: That is the first rundown in which one actually gets completely involved with OT. The first OT rundown.
R: But that is still not the real one? I think that happens when you get to OT15 on the Bridge.
Z: Yes, the Bridge goes to OT15. And then you are free from all barriers, however that may be.
R: When you get up that high. But you can't do that, because they don't even offer OT9 today.
Z: No, at the moment they don't. There has to be a lot of preparation. You can only study physics when you have professors that teach physics.
R: So, it's that complicated to get high up?
Z: Mm Mmh. It's not entirely simple.
R: Do you have to be intelligent to do it, or can anybody?
Z: It is like you have - whether you think it's true now or not, I'm saying it now - collected 76 billion years worth of garbage, bagging the garbage, if you can haul it all away in one lifetime, that's great, if you can do it in half a lifetime, that would be even greater, but even if it takes 10 lives, I still think that's incredibly fast.
R: And that is what people take these OT steps for?
Z: I am telling you, you are a being with a capability which is monstrous. I give quite a few presentations on Scientology for other Scientologists or for people who are thinking of doing it.
R: And where do you do that, here in Munich?
Z: In Paris, Zurich, Vienna, everywhere, wherever people want to hear me.
R: But those are people who are not so educated?
Z: Nonsense, all kinds sit in.
R: But couldn't Helnwein do that, too?
Z: He could do it if he wanted to.
R: But he's not.
Z: No, he just plain is not.
R: Doesn't he have to?
Z: No, nobody has to. Really not, they call me up and say,
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"You, next Sunday we have the chance to invite you to Duesseldorf to give a presentation." Then I either say yes or no. If I can, I do it, if I can't, I let it be.
R: Like in the Celebrity Center in Duesseldorf with director Adelheid Rech-Gesche?
Z: Could be, she was very active, but not extensively trained. She was extensively audited, up to OT 8, but there are two sides to the Bridge. An example is someone going up a stairs using one leg while the other does not move, at some point the split gets too wide. Then you have to recover or split in half.
R: But when you are, for example, an Auditor 4 on one side and an OT8 on the other side, isn't the distance there no longer so vast, no longer too great.
Z: It has to do with something else, with understanding. You understand, the further up you are on the training side, the more you understand what is happening on the auditing side. You have more wins. Let's say here once. I'll express it in terms of percentages. If you are not trained, you have maybe 50% of the wins and are happy and wild about it. If you were now to become an auditor and compare what has just happened to you, how it went, you will have 100% wins, so who doesn't want that? If I invest my money, I would like to get as much back for it as possible. I have a win. I am much too stingy to squander my money. But there are people who have enough who say "I am now a pre-clear, now do something with me. Now I have paid and I would like to learn something."
R: And what happens then? What does he learn?
Z: He learns that sooner or later he will get to a point where he gets a little bit sad because he has not done anything for others, but just for himself.
R: With "OT" one does something for himself and with "auditing" one practically helps others.
Z: One also helps others to become OT.
R: As an auditor?
Z: Yes, as an auditor. Now I'll have to tell you this example. Have you ever heard the word "bank"?
Z:That is the undesired subconscious which can influence you at any time. Reacting to what has just happened.
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It is a stimulus-response mechanism. It is stimulated and it reacts to that. What it most compares to is instinct. And we are filled up with these mechanisms, apparently we've collected them. For one reason or another we thought they were interesting, so we collect them all the time. The time, in which this spiritual being lives. Provided that you can agree with me that the spiritual being is a long-term presence and has nothing to do with a body.
R: I can conceive of one coming back in some form or fashion.
Z: You are not the body, but you are the person who gives evidence of an identity with a name.
R: I've thought of that before. So I don't believe, either, that when we die, or when I die, that I am dead once and for all. I really don't believe that.
Z: That is sensible, although you're not yet so far.
R: Now independently from your thought, I have just simply thought that.
Z: In Germany, according to a survey, 80% of the inhabitants believe in past lives and that after this there will be more lives, i.e., only 20% have the opinion that they are born and when you're in the box, you're gone. They are those that develop an insane drive; so they have to do everything now because after this one it's over, poor swine! This being has begun as a being, as an identity sometime, has experienced or will experience things and has begun a game with more of these beings. And sometimes one collects things which one does not look at anymore, which one sets aside. One says that's what I'll put in the box, now that is not exactly important. Those are engrams, so something combined with a painful experience which I bind to unconsciousness, that is called an engram. And there are many other experiences, which are not pleasant for one either, which one sets aside. And this box slowly gets filled up. And you can imagine, there is a small person, so big that he is surrounded by, and this is saying it mildly, by a cubic kilometer of compacted trash. Now tell him, look here, is there something which is causing you trouble. That is about how you can imagine it. In auditing, this cubic kilometer of trash is shovelled into consciousness.
R: So it is gotten rid of.
Z: To put it more strongly, those are mental masses which react on the e-meter.
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They are again made known and are confronted or duplicated, as one calls it. They have then lost their potentially negative effect on time. The being is then free again when this trash is gone.
R: And that is what "clear" is for the first time?
Z: You are that only on the first dynamic.
R: But don't I gather new trash all the time?
Z: If you don't pay attention, yes!
R: Because of that I get continuous auditing, or what?
Z: The more you're trained as an auditor, the less you gather new trash. The OT who only goes up one side of the Bridge to OT, who has no notion of auditing or of the mechanics in this bank, he quickly and happily gathers up new trash again. Now he'll break a leg, which he should not have done for the longest time.
R: So theoretically I could avoid that? You think that one could avoid the accident principle?
Z: Yes, "accident principle," what is that?
R: What is an accident?
Z: I just had to laugh ...
R: I think that our sitting here together is an accident, for instance, in some way, shape or form.
Z: That is certainly not a 100% accident. You wanted it to happen and I agreed.
R: Yes, but still I had to have the thought.
Z: Yes, but that's still not an accident.
R: That one has a thought?
Z: It is complex, it is multifaceted, etc. and one puts it aside as being an accident. I was accidentally standing there and the train accidentally past by and I accidentally caught my shoe on the track. What it needed, however, for this being to steer a body somewhere where a track was and kick it and a train comes by at the same time. There is machinery which has to be set in motion so that the foot overstepped. It is so complicated and he does it so easily. And then says all that happened to me, accidentally. Ha ha ha.
R: Have you ever really gotten to know Ron Hubbard?
Z: No, but I corresponded with him for a long time.
R: In writing and that worked?
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Z: Yes, well sure.
R: But didn't you ever want to get to meet him personally?
Z: I wanted to draw him. That would have been the only reason that I really would have wanted to see him personally. And I also convinced myself, what's the point? What reason do I have to drive to him and shake his hand? If I have the opinion that I am a spiritual being, he is a spiritual being, then I can communicate with him somehow as I want to. So I don't have to shake his hand. So what? In any case I didn't do it, but I could have.
R: But he received people and one could discuss things with him quite normally and so forth?
Z: Get to know him.
R: But Gottfried Helnwein didn't get to know him?
Z: Not to my knowledge. You'd have to ask Gottfried. But I'd be very surprised, since I believe he joined after Hubbard had already retreated from public view.
R: That was 1972.
Z: Hubbard was already gone by then.
R: Was he on the cruise ship Apollo then?
Z: No, not then.
R: He was no longer on that?
Z: No, not so far I am aware, no more.
R: Did Hubbard actually ever visit his organizations, in Munich for example?
Z: Everything ran by Telex.
R: Didn't that interest him, what it looked like there and so forth. I mean, what had been built there in his name, after all.
Z: Maybe he was there, I don't know. I don't know what he could have done as "OT." OT means "Operating Thetan." Thetan is the spiritual presence. An "Operating Thetan" is one who can do things and have things done without having to use the body. If he visited the Org or not, who knows. In principle, you could do exactly the same thing. You could talk about the Andromeda nebula and could also think to there and are also then there. That is the joke. Only you, yourself, do not believe it and therefore you are hanging around here. That is actually everything.
R: I am not an "Operating Thetan," neither OT 1 nor OT 8, like you are. But what do you have in mind for me now?
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Z: Now I'll tell you something else. Basically each person is an "Operating Thetan." Basically. He is different only in the trash he puts before himself, like a Chinese Wall, and says, "I can't do it, not on your life." But that is only himself. Only the person himself limits himself. Nobody else can limit him in general. Nobody has that power.
R: But with the help of this training material which I get in Flag, in Clearwater, or, first of all, in England?
Z: With that material you can disencumber a little of yourself; you permit yourself to now let that portion be used. Or this portion, or that one; then you grow.
R: So one learns to lead a simpler life, can you say it like that?
Z: I wouldn't say it that way. Under circumstances, it can get very complicated. Whatever each individual puts himself up to. It can be very simple or very complex.
R: But you read a lot with these OT grades. That does not have anything to do with auditing. When you take this OT 8 course on the "Freewinds" ship, that is very secluded. So you're on the ship the 4 weeks or the 2 weeks. Is one then an OT 8 after 2 weeks, or how long were you on the "Freewinds" to become an OT 8?
Z: That can vary a lot. I know of a woman who needed 3 months. I didn't have that much time, so I had to take the concentrated subject. For me it took 14 days.
R: But it's only done on the ship. Do you have to do it on the ship?
Z: The only place they give it is on the ship.
R: In the form of a book or a computer?
Z: Do it yourself, then you'll know exactly.
R: May you not reveal it?
Z: No, that would be stupid if I did that.
R: So you may not or you should not?
Z: No, one should not. It is something else that happens, I can tell you. Something is forming with you called a "Hidden Standard."
R: That means I'm biased.
Z: Then you would be biased. In case you took it later yourself, then you would have an opinion, oh, that Zoellner told me that time he did it in 14 days and he had done this and that, and now I've been sitting on the ship for 3 weeks and haven't done that yet. Can't I do it? Yes, I would be doing you out of some money,
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you would have to pay more to stay there longer.
R: On the ship?
Z: Yes, certainly, you have to pay for that.
R:That costs money. Like in a hotel.
R: Otherwise it wouldn't happen.
Z: If I were to now pump you full of the "Hidden Standard" and tell you it was like so and so and so, then I would be potentially doing you out of money in the future. That is something quite else again.
R: But why must I pay so much to be able to do that?
Z: Because so much is delivered.
R: Why would it not be more favorable to sell OT 8 to anybody for $1,000, for instance?
Z: How would they do that? Do you know a ship that will let you stay on it for two weeks for $1,000? Even if 5,000 people were there, that would not be enough for the gas, harbor fees, for food. That wouldn't be enough for anything.
R: I understand that. Somewhere there would have to be something similar to a hotel.
Z: Scientology is a self-contained system. No individual makes profit from it, instead it is invested in you. You obtain material. You know what it costs to produce a book. You have to deal with the text, the material, paper and printing alone costs money. Then the artfulness one has to invest, the time one has to invest costs money.
R: That ends up being done by a lot of people who take courses to refinance it.
R: Like a publisher for an author.
Z: Exactly. Only there, everything is pumped back in. Everything flows back, and by doing that expansion takes place because nobody skims anything. If there were now someone who was in a position to divert the money ...
R: David Miscavige could take out 500 million or a billion dollars somehow ...
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Z: He doesn't get much more than a staff member here in Munich. He doesn't have more.
R: But maybe that would bother you if he were getting more.
Z: I personally don't really give a damn. I'm more of the mind that he deserves to get more. What would he do with it?
R: Do you know him personally?
Z: Yes, sure.
R: And how is he? Nice?
Z: One tough dude.
Z: No, not in general. Hard, fast. One of the fastest people I know. He immediately becomes aware of, sees and repairs anything not in order. Frightful.
R: A good manager and a good organizer. The cleverest of them all?
Z: I wouldn't say that. Maybe there are more clever people, but he ranks up at the top. He is not very tall. But a little rascal that when you see him go by, you think, "Good God, there is a bundle of energy!"
Z: I mean he has seen to it that the 40 years long battle by the CIA and the FBI against Scientology has come to a stop. Even the revenue office, the IRS. That is what this little fellow has done there. And he is not that small. He is 5 foot 3.
R: But "in Scientology" he is really the Nr. 1 man, could one say that?
Z: Yes, deservedly.
R: And Heber Jentzsch? Is he more of a figurehead?
Z: Heber Jentzsch is the President of the Church, in a manner of speaking. It is an organization which consists of many branches. One of them is the system of churches, and Heber Jentzsch is the President of that.
R: And do you know him well, too?
Z: I'm friends with him. Of all the people I've met in upper management, I know of no one of whom I would say that boy needs to go.
Z: Those are people who have really earned their posts and whom I support where I can.
R: They've also been on their posts for a long time.
Z:Yes, until they leave because another is better.
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R: That sounds like "hire and fire."
Z: It goes according to the principle of performance, all of Scientology. That is what makes it attractive.
Z: We have a state, it's called a social state. When you look at it carefully you will see that when someone does nothing, he gets money for it. When somebody makes something, it is taxed and taken away. The "up-stat," the high statistics, are punished, the low are rewarded. What do you get, you get only low statistics. Let's see you do that in business. I don't know, but you have people, employees? Let's say you have 10 people. And one of them is an absolutely lazy pig. Now every morning you give him a bottle of wine and tell him to go home and pay him. What will the others say? At some point the others will sit there and try to be lazier in order to get the reward... The entire shop will not work in the short or the long term.
R: I'm amazed that you always have the chance to communicate as friends with the highest managers in the organization whom you meet here.
Z: Several weeks ago, the President of CC Int was here with his wife.
R: From Celebrity Center International?
Z: Yes. He was here with a television team.
R: Here in your house.
Z: They were making a series, called "Entertainment Tonight." Apparently it's very well known in America. I was not aware of it. I don't get American television.
R: Wasn't there an actress with them? Anne Archer.
R: Was she also here? That's what I read.
Z: A very nice woman. We have gotten to like each other a little bit.
Z: Yes, she made three films. Two of them with Michael Douglas, I believe. She is very well known. I didn't know her before, my daughter recognized her immediately. She knew five films right away. "You could have told me before, Tussi was coming tomorrow and I didn't know her."
R: She wanted to come, I believe, to see what was happening here with the Scientologists.
Z: Yes. It was about that. Are there cases of discrimination, yes or no, and if yes, what?
R: And she asked you that there?
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Z: Anne Archer was the one being interviewed and the producer of "Entertainment Tonight" was there and then the people were questioned.
R: Helnwein too?
Z: I don't think so, but I don't know.
R: Have you had experiences with discrimination?
Z: Yes, of course I've had them. I have never hidden it, I'll have to say... I have never made it a secret that I was a Scientologist, if someone asks me, "Are you a Scientologist?" I say "Of course, aren't you?" That is my style. My opinion. I have studied philosophy and have indeed read so much stuff. I've read and learned and that is the best I've ever heard. So I do that right away. That was my attitude. That is not everybody's attitude.
R: I think that's good when someone stands up for himself. That is also what I like about you. What I don't like about Helnwein is that he does not stand up for himself.
Z: I really don't know his motives. I only know that someone threw rocks at his children in Burgbrohl. And now he has to take responsibility for that.
R: Naturally that's not pretty, if that was so. I hadn't heard anything of it.
Z: But he must have, one can say, also contributed to it. Whether it was his attitude, was he unapproachable for the people of the village, or what, I don't know.
R: Now Interior Minister Beckstein is also criticizing this RPF prison camp near Hemet in California. What does the normal Scientologist know about that? What do you know about it? Is there such a thing?
Z: There is no camp of that sort. They would like that. I am telling you how such a camp can come about. There is a school which is near the Denmark border. A friend of mine went there because he has children.
R: [A school] where Scientology children from Hamburg go?
Z: For instance. When you look at the school in pictures or on television, you always see barbed wire around it. Do you know where that comes from? The school's neighbor fenced in his own place with barbed wire. Those guys go to the neighbor's property, photograph the school through the barbed wire, then you see the Scientology school behind barbed wire and that becomes the camp. And the children attend, as I have recently seen on television, in gray suits.
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Z: Ah, nonsense. Coincidentally there is a school in Clearwater, there the children were given recreational clothes by a businessman. With hoods, they look like dwarves, all in gray. They put them on. Then they came out of the building and were portrayed as clones. Feeblemindedness of the first degree.
R: But there's something like that in the Greenfield School in England, too.
Z: I don't even know if the children had school uniforms or not.
R: Did your children go to Scientology school?
Z: No. Only my son went to the Steiner School and my daughter went here to the high school.
R: Then why would someone like Helnwein send his children to an SC school in England or Clearwater?
Z: So they're trained so they don't unlearn anything. When you look at the school system you went to, how much junk would you take out if you had to do it over?
R: Quite a bit.
Z: So they want to avoid having that 80% pressed into them.
R: Are these schools really preparation for later work as "staff" in high management?
Z: Of course not.
R: That's not so?
Z: That is a school in which the Hubbard's study technology is applied.
R: But there is no obligation to later continue on as a "sea or member."
Z: Of course not.
R: But there are some so-called "Sea Org Kids." Cyril Helnwein is in the Sea Org, he's a Sea Org child.
Z: Good. But that's what he wanted.
R: But that means he's trying for a position in management.
Z: I wouldn't know.
R: What else does one take training for? Can one quasi-independently decide afterwards what one wants to do?
Z: Logical. He will possibly be employed according to his abilities. Perhaps he draws well, then he goes to the department in "Gold" which distributes books. If he's good with numbers, the perhaps he
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goes to the "treasury" department. Yes, he can, but he doesn't have to.
R: And the prison camp reported by former members like Tabayoyon, where Sea Org members have to run for hours around the swimming pool with nothing to eat or drink.
Z: Oh, come on.
R: Have you ever been to Hemet?
Z: I have heard that things like that have been described, and I asked if something like that exists. I can only say that I have been credibly assured that it is rubbish.
R: There is no kind of camp, regardless of type?
Z: Who was supposed to set it up and maintain it?
What kind of bumpkins are supposed to have done that? A feeble-minded story like that could only have been thought up in a country where prison camps exist. That is where people would believe that. And that is Germany. Ha ha ha. Because they have to be there. Stick people you don't like in the prison camp.
R: But that is where they put "Sea Org members" who have problems with the organization, who make a mistake, embezzle money and so forth, in a camp, "Rehabilitation Project Force," where people have a chance to make up for their mistakes with heavy physical work, so they can be accepted in their old posts again, isn't that right?
Z: Let's say it is. He is being given a chance to do something for others and to rehabilitate himself.
R: That only goes for "Sea Org" members who go there.
R: If you, for example, are not a Sea Org member ...
Z: I would say, "Ciao, nice knowing you." But Sea Org members can also do that. They can also say "Ciao."
R: Then he's out for good.
Z: Then he is simply out.
R: Then he also loses all his OTs, all his rank.
Z: But there is no rank.
R: Training grades?
Z: He can no longer audit in the name of the Church. That would be a little bit peculiar. You throw somebody out of the company, or he quits and keeps making the same thing, only now it's called something else.
R: And he also loses his OTs? I don't know if one can lose those.
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Z: That cannot be taken away.
R: Once a clear, always a clear?
Z: Imagine that how it would be if you were to get a tan. You go on vacation and get a tan. Now you come back and somebody doesn't like it. You lose your tan. How does that happen?
R: Jeanette Schweitzer, she was declared to be a "Suppressive Person," she also lost everything. There is a letter from Mr. Stricker, who then says, "Dear Mrs. So-and-so, effective immediately ..." One could say that is degrading.
Z: Yeah, well, it doesn't make any difference, because she misunderstood something. Otherwise that wouldn't have happened. Quite simple, if I and my car, I have had a valid driver's license since 1962, If I were to drive the third car into a tree, some time in a drunken state, I would also have to get a new license.
R: Either give it up or get a new one.
Z: Logical. Something is not right there. Either he can't drive, or he does not even have a driver's license. Completely normal. I don't find anything peculiar about that.
R: What do you think of people like Jeanette Schweitzer when she goes in front of the camera and tells the reporters, "This was the room, this is where people were abused."
Z: She saw that?
R: I read this report.
Z: Have you also looked at these rooms?
R: I've seen the rooms. They looked like little children's rooms, or single rooms, like in a small hotel.
Z: Yeah, well and, were they ugly?
R: No, they were completely normal rooms.
Z: Clear, pretty little rooms, just no big rooms. If I had two people in there to work, the one is an auditor, and a little table, that is this big. And the other has a chair, I don't need an auditorium, I only need a room which has space for two chairs and a table and is ventilated, I don't need any more than that. If I were then to say, as Schweitzer has said, that I have also accidentally seen that and noted it down and say, that is like a penal camp, look at it, then I could only giggle. I can only tell you the following: this building used to be the CDU center in Stuttgart before it was rented to the Scientologists.
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Then I could only say that, sadly, the CDU had kept its people in prison, until then, ha ha ha. Naturally, Schweitzer doesn't say that. She was a small fry in Scientology.
R: She also would have wanted to say something.
Z: She was frustrated because she was thrown out of a company. She was bitter and avenged herself and notice, hey, I can live off of this.
R: From this story, if I go to the press?
Z: Hartwig lives off it, Schweitzer lives off it, Caberta lives off it, there is Potthoff living off it and Traeger. Very dazzling.
R: Tom Voltz too?
Z: Yes? I don't know him.
R: The one from Switzerland, he was a WISE member.
Z: I think I don't know him. Yes, that is all a question of payola or a matter of existence. They are paid by the churches, either the one or the other, or from television somehow, they get honoria and travel expenses. They have lived magnificently from that.
How did things get that way? Hartwig took one course, not even a Scientology course, but a course given by a Scientologist, that is how one makes money. She signed up and took it, it cost 198 DM and then she didn't pay. She got her first warning and she didn't respond. Not the the second one, either. Then came a third warning. Then came an order to pay. Then she turned into a Scientology opponent, then she turned into the persecuted one. I don't know. What am I supposed to tell the woman, I don't want to dirty my hands. I think, I have a life, that is maybe 20 more years in this body. I certainly won't sit down with Mrs. Hartwig for half an hour to soil myself. Why should I?
R: Can you picture talking with someone, with the "Enemy," someone from the "other" side?
Z: With a serious man, yes.
Z: If he could credibly assure me that he did not have a pre-formed, opinion that was set in concrete, then yes. If that were not the case, then no, because that is fruitless. Why should I?
R: It is still important for people to access each other?
Z: Well sure, logical.
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R: Because the whole callousness as it now appears, I think is really a big mistake. Nobody gains anything from that. You will not gain more members with the campaign which is being led by Helnwein from the USA. The most that will happen is the dedicated members will just bunch closer together.
Z: In a lecture, I once said, "If we did not have enemies, we would have to invent them." I have gotten to know more Scientologists since there has been an enemy than before. I would not have even known that this or that person was a Scientologist, it just didn't use to interest me. People move closer together because of the attacks.
R: That's the way it's always been. But one strengthens the enemy through attacks.
Z: Yes, logical.
R: One doesn't get them, but they get us.
Z: Completely right, there is a lecture by Hubbard on that. I can only tell you that he has written something on everything. He wrote how one directs attention to an opponent. When I get involved with it, I take my attention units away from my projects and give them to him. Energy is something which is transmitted, that is, I make a start with that. So what of it?
R: I mean, where the German government, completely unjustified, is getting its problem now is this nonsense which is being put on by SC USA and Helnwein, and one really can't get away from that. That was, at first glance, real intelligent.
Z: Yes, I've done some things so that they would be the odd man out.
R: People can have completely different opinions about that. And how often were you over there in Clearwater?
Z: That depended upon how well I can sell, how I could bring it off. As I had the time. That would depend upon the factors of time, money and desire.
Z: But what could you still do now. You've taken all the course already that one could possibly take.
Z: I have not gotten along very far on the left side of the Bridge, the auditing side.
R: Up to 4, wasn't it?
Z: Yes, but many have only made it up to 4. So what? For most people that's enough.
R: Could you audit me?
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R: Could we talk while we were doing it? I have to speak and you listen.
Z: I ask the questions and you answer the questions.
R: How does this "Field Staff Member story" really work? If I were to now be recruited by you?
Z: I am now a Field Staff Member and would receive 10% of everything that you pay.
R: So if I now go up to OT 8, for example, you would get ...
Z: Only if I were the one that accompanied you up that high.
R: I see. Then you probably would not make any more.
Z: Sometimes another comes along who is more interesting for you as an "Opinion Leader," then you tell yourself, now I'll listen to what he has to tell me. Or he has now moved me to take the course and you say who motivated you to do that.
R: Ok, so it has to be recorded who my agent is.
Z: Exactly. Then he gets this 10 percent and his path on the Bridge gets cheaper.
R: He doesn't receive any money though, just credit?
Z: He can also get it paid out. Or they get it as a check. You get 12% if you leave it in the church and 10% if you take it out.
When someone who is a Scientologist tells me that Scientology is very, very expensive, then I know the poor sow is simply too lazy to recruit another person.
R: So there is nothing negative to be found in the whole Scientology system?
Z: I'll tell you something. We have a cleaning lady, a quiet woman, extremely dear and nice. A person one likes to have around, her husband is unemployed. They have 5 children. Her family, her 5 children and her husband live off her going to clean at various places. One day she got here, and she had observed what we do because everything around us is so open. She already knew what we did. I asked her, "Could you come next week, we're going to the USA and are taking a course there. Could you perhaps look after the cat?" In any case she knew that we did that and never said a word about it. Until she came one day holding a newspaper article from the "Miessbacher Anzeiger" in her hand. "Looky here what they're writing in the paper again." "Yes that's their opinion." She said, "Look, I just called up the editor and told him
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nothing about his article is right." Such a quiet little girl. But she went on. She said, "There it says that it now costs 150,000 DM to get as far as you've gotten." "They may have understated it a little. It might be a little bit more," I said. Her jaw hit the floor. "What do you have now?" my wife said to her. She said, "You know, Mrs. Zoellner, I would also want to make what you make, and I have already saved up 15,000 DM. But if it costs that much, then I couldn't do it." She was very dejected. And then I was able to tell her that if you bring someone else into Scientology, then you get this 10% commission, so when you have 10 it's free of charge. That gave her new hope.
Or she could be a staff member.
R: Then it would be free of charge to her.
Z: Then she would also get it free of charge, logical.
R: But does one have to go to Clearwater?
Z: She could also do it in Duesseldorf or in Munich. Anywhere they have an Org.
R: But didn't you ever have a desire to form a Celebrity Center?
Z: Yes, why should I? I think ...
R: Yes, but Helnwein did it.
Z: Why did he do it? Because then he could have courses given in his own house. Out of laziness, or convenience, or even under circumstances to have staff who are at least educated in the terminology. He wouldn't always have to be explaining to them. For instance, then one could say "Dev-T." They would know right away what Dev-T is, but if I say it to you, then perhaps you would not, sadly.
R: So what's it mean?
Z: It means "Developed Traffic," like when one acts, works and produces like a hamster, but no product comes out of it, then that is "Dev-T" and you can now tell him that was an unnecessary spasm. "Unnecessary spasm" in technical language is called "Dev-T." That is much, much simpler, since now I can speak with people because we have the same reality on similar things.
R: Would you also speak jargon, for instance, when you were talking with Helnwein face to face, or on the telephone, or when you met in Clearwater, did you also use this clandestine speech?
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Z: Naturally I would use that word, because I would save myself from saying a long sentence and certainly Gottfried would understand.
R: But really that is more in the written vocabulary of the Scientologists, isn't it? One writes more in the Scientology language than one speaks, doesn't he?
Z: Yes, logical. If you are writing letters to each other, then of course you would not speak, but write. That is certainly typical in writing letters. Hubbard had a saying which many Scientologists believe in. "What's not written is not true." So, what's written is not true. You cannot give anybody verbal instructions.
R: There is also much written.
Z: Verbal things are immediately distorted. The first man says, "Close the door." The next one says, "He told me I should close the gate." The third one says, "He claimed that the other said that I should tear down the garden gate." It gets distorted. But written down I can see what he said. Then it remains as it was meant.
R: When you meet people who are not Scientologists, like me, do you really have to write a report afterwards, a knowledge report?
Z: To whom?
R: I recently read in the newspaper that someone had sent a knowledge report to Clearwater, that a friend of his had a problem about what his wife said about Scientology.
Z: I would do that if I could help you by doing it.
R: But only because I was a Scientologist.
Z: Yes, otherwise it wouldn't mean anything.
R: Otherwise it would be nonsense.
Z: Do you think I have nothing else to do but write knowledge reports?
R: Perhaps to help a friend or a colleague?
Z: Logical. Only that.
R: So that one notices, OK, he has a problem somewhere in his development, now look, that tells him what can be done there.
Z: There is absolutely nothing else to it.
R: From your point of view there is nothing negative about that?
Z: No, not at all. That is an opportunity.
R: When one reads the Helnwein knowledge report, one thinks he is reading a Stasi report. That he's squealing on people, etc.
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Z: Then that is the problem which people who wrote the real Stasi reports had. Perhaps Mr. Stolpe had a problem with that.
R: But doesn't the one on whom the report is written get into trouble with the organization in some way or manner?
Z: Why should he?
R: I have also wondered, the information is there, like the one on whom it is written, for instance, gets a copy of the knowledge report.
Z: He has to get one, that is the rule.
R: Then that means that nothing goes on behind your back in the organization.
R: That is also your duty, to inform the person on whom you write the report?
Z: That is simply "good manners."
R: That is what I was wondering about.
Z: That is perfectly normal behavior. I certainly don't want to chatter on about it. If I wanted to say something about you and you were a Scientologist and in the Organization and if I were to find out that, dammit all, you had a problem and you stopped coming in. I see what the problem is, but would not be able to talk it over with you because your counselor is your auditor, or you "C/S," Case Supervisor, then I would give him this report, but also let you know that I have done that.
R: And the person you did that to would not be cross at you?
Z: Why should he?
R: Because I was with you, we talked, had a glass of wine together and you suddenly noticed, I don't know but somehow he has a problem.
Z: The first stage would be I would call you up and say, "Hey, is it OK with you if I tell this to the C/S? The Case Supervisor.
R: And who is that? Who is the Case Supervisor? Is that the auditor?
Z: No, that is the one that supervises the auditor. The Case Supervisor.
R: His chief?
Z: Yes, you could say that. You know, if you go to a psychologist or to a psychiatrist, then that is one person who can do with you what he wants to. Except for if he breaks your arm, then you could sue him. That is all. Nobody checks him out to see whether he makes a mistake or not. The auditor is in a system where if he makes a mistake, it can be
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R: That means you also have a case supervisor?
Z: Of course.
R: Then does Gottfried Helnwein also have a case supervisor?
Z: Of course.
R: Each auditor?
Z: They take turns.
R: Oh, they take turns, Why do they do that?
Z: The one is responsible for this auditing, the other is responsible for the other. If there are 100 there who do auditing, then it cannot be one, several are needed to go through the folders and say, now this is the next action which is right for him.
R: Aha, and then there are always different case supervisors and different auditors who can solve certain problems. If I read the brochure correctly, the highest trained auditor goes up to Class 12.
Z: Class 12, yes.
R: That is the auditor extraordinaire?
Z: Yes, that is true. If you were to look at it on the scientific plane, Class 12 auditors, those are the highest scientists on the planet who deal with the human psyche.
R: Then, in principle, that would be what you want, to be audited only by Class 12 auditors.
Z: That would be right. Only that also costs a lot of money, because they are, naturally, more expensive than other auditors, like Class 4.
R: The time with a Class 12 man or woman is more expensive than with a Class 4?
Z: Yes, of course, they are trained completely differently, that means they have invested 6 years in their training and deliver a whole other volume of alternatives. And if you go into a good pub you pay more there than at the subway bar.
R: But you could now say, I want to spend two weeks at Flag, live in Fort Harrison, and this time I would like to be audited by a Class 12 auditor.
Z: Yes, if you pay for it.
R: What does that cost per hour?
Z: I couldn't even tell you. I would have to ask my wife. I leave that kind of thing up to her.
R: But it's rather expensive?
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Z: Compared with what, rather expensive? That is always relative.
R: I'm still looking for the disadvantages of Scientology.
Z: I'm still looking for them, too.
R: Are there disadvantages?
Z: I haven't found any yet.
R: Have you, in the 30 years you've been in, found disadvantages.
Z: I'll have to tell you something, I'm not really a critical type of guy, I try to avoid traps in my living and in my feeling. And then I got together with this whole set of knowledge, by meeting the first Scientologist.
R: Who was that?
Z: Somebody I knew. Somebody who's not with it anymore.
R: Ah so.
Z: I really don't like saying that, either.
R: It doesn't make any difference.
Z: In any case it is an architect who lives in the area.
R: Did you ever meet Arthur Hubbard?
R: I once gave him an assignment for ORF. We put a large model together. He worked and painted in Helnwein's castle.
Z: He's funny, a real wild man.
R: Yes, yes, he's a nice guy. I got to know him there, he was real nice, but spoke very critically of his father ...
Z: Well, that's logical. He is one who has tried everything out on his father. Today he still does not know where on the Bridge he is. Also he does not understand much of it, because he did not do it in chronological order.
R: Does he still work today as an artist, or is he doing these training steps?
Z: That doesn't have anything to do with it. He can take the services, the same as I.
R: But he's not doing it?
Z: Sometimes. He's working.
R: What's that mean?
Z: He's doing bigger work.
R: What mission does the Sea Org have? How does one get into the RPF?
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Z: It's their mission to supervise courses as they have been planned and thought out so that there are no deviations. When he wants to change things of his own account and make a false policy, or when he adds his own flavor to something because he thinks it would run better, then that is what happens to him. If he wants to remain a Sea Org member, then he has to be corrected, otherwise he would harm others. Then he goes into the RPF. We call that "MEST work."
R: What's that mean?
Z: Makes beds or renovation work and stuff. While he's doing that he does the "False Purpose Rundown."
R: Oh, so he has to do this rundown when he is having the problem?
Z: Exactly. "False Purpose Rundown" means a rundown which corrects false concepts of goals which he potentially has. But he must also learn to be able to perform in the same time frame, simultaneously. Naturally, that is difficult. He has to work his normal schedule and has to learn to audit and be audited. What he's doing is a correction program.
R: But it doesn't cost anything?
Z: No, it costs nothing.
R: But it is awfully strenuous.
Z: He just has to do it. I have not yet seen a person who has gotten fat from it, but fat people have gotten thin. You could say that.
R: OK, so the theory, the spiritual basis, is indisputable?
Z: You could say that. A Scientologist is not a person who believes something, but he is somebody who has tried something out, and what he has tried out for himself and it works is true. Only that which works for him is true.
R: That is an interesting definition. If that is the definition of a Scientologist, then we could also say that of ourselves. Because we also try out everything.
Z: Logical, you act in the same way without being a part of this trend. Naturally you act that way because it is rational. There is a rational conduct and there is an irrational conduct. Irrational conduct can be categorized as crazy or insane, and rational conduct as healthy and promoting survival. You could say it quite crudely that way.
R: Yes, when one affirms life.
Z: Yes, if one denies it, the one is in the wrong place. Then bodies would
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R: And when did everything begin for a Scientologist? According to what I have read, and also, what you have said, SC has concluded that every person is a Thetan, a spirit.
Z: A spiritual being or an individuality, however you may think of that.
R: Yes, a being that continues to live anew, always comes back new in a new body.
Z: In a new body, that is right.
R: Then everything must have started sometime.
R: With a big bang, with a single cell, or who did all that?
Z: Unfortunately, the question is not answerable, because this "who," according to the definition, is not a "who."
R: What does "Clear Germany" mean, for example?
Z: Clear is a certain state that did not exist before 1948. It means freed on the first dynamic, and I'll say something about that. Freed means from this undesired trash, only as a being itself, not as a pair, or family, not as a group, not as humanity, not as a living being, not as an inanimate being and not as a concept, not as a supreme being, but just on the First Dynamic. This state is new and it is a very desirable state by which one is no longer a victim of his past. And "Clear Germany" means to help, if possible, an overwhelming number of the inhabitants to the state of "clear." When that is attained, then Germany is "clear," that is all.
R: Isn't that a political aspect then?
Z: What now? Gerster said "You are promoting Clear Germany." He is such an asshole. That would be like him accusing the health minister of promoting healthy inhabitants in Germany. "Clear" does not give me any rights. I am just more aware, shall we say. If that is a consideration, I can say "yes."
R: I haven't read it myself, but I've heard it quoted that Hubbard said the only people who are "clear" should have civil rights.
Z: He is not incorrect, but because of a completely different reason. If someone has, let's say civil rights, we'll stick with that for now, he can completely tangle himself up at any moment, or can be deciding things which he has not even answered which come out of
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his uncontrolled unconscious, then naturally that is more difficult to handle, for co-survival in society, than if people live together who don't have to do that. That is surely an analytical society.
R: But can you imagine that Scientologists and non-Scientologists will continue to develop things together?
Z: That is what we are doing now. That's always been the case.
R: But that is not according to the writings because Hubbard wanted, in principle, for the entire world to consist only of Scientologists.
Z: His tendency is to free beings, to put them in a situation where they free themselves. Free beings can get along together better than unfree beings. That is completely logical. When you go for a walk with somebody and every 10 or 20 steps he does a somersault, that is a bad walk. When you walk with somebody and say, "We're going from point A to B and you go straight there, then that is wonderful. But in doing so, if he stops for a snack and stands around, and, according to his concept he walks 5 steps backward, then it just takes longer for you to arrive. Then for the next walk, you will go with somebody who you know will go straight from A to B instead of 10 times around his own axle.
R: So people should learn to separate themselves from their trash, and after I do that I am free?
A: Right. Simply, so that you can decide for yourself. If you could not decide for yourself, then one can absolutely not claim that you are free.
R: But do you believe that I cannot now freely decide and therefore I would need Scientology, do you believe that?
Z: In every case, within limits.
R: You think that?
Z: Yes, that is my conviction, because that is what I know. You do not know it because it is not your reality. But is is mine.
R: But I can no longer freely decide if I only proceed according to Hubbard policies.
Z: Those are only policies for the path of freedom. You can, on the contrary, probably freely decide the first time. What could one say as an example. Examples are always awfully lame, but I like to use them anyway, they make things more alive and not so abstract. Suppose your parents had told you, Child, when you meet a red-haired person, he is always wrong or sly, or if you meet a black-haired
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person, he will get hostile easily, only blonds are great. Yes, and now you meet a red-haired person. Whether you want it to or not, this sentence occurs to you. Suddenly it occurs to you and you say, "he is a little bit sly." That is not a freedom, but a program you have.
R: And that is the bug which I have to get rid of?
Z: Exactly. When you look at this thing once, or have looked at it, you will tell yourself, "Where does this datum really come from, why has this been said." That has nothing at all to do with me, that is a datum from Aunt Elise. And then you can freely decide, either you like it or you don't.
R: Is that what happens inside of auditing? One says that and afterwards one knows what I said was complete nonsense.
Z: Find that out for yourself and laugh yourself silly. I can tell you, you will laugh yourself silly. An example: marriages never break up because someone has been unfaithful, that happens the least in the marriages I know that failed. What happens is that one likes to chomp his salad because he likes it and she can't hear it. And when she does hear it, it sounds to her like breaking bones. But he doesn't leave it at that, whenever salad comes, he chomps it. And she always tells him, don't chomp your salad, I'm getting quite annoyed. Then the marriage breaks up. Now, when that comes out coincidentally in auditing, that one has a failed marriage, his children are I don't know where, now his marriage problem comes up before him and he sees that it had to do with chomping salad, because sometime some doctor accidentally broke one of his bones, and that sounded like salad that was being chomped.
R: That has nothing at all to do with the man, but with some experience out of his past.
Z: Then he laughs himself silly because he had a marriage for 20 years that failed because of chomped salad. Then it dissolves itself.
R: Could you imagine being married to a non-Scientologist?
Z: Difficult. I know of cases where that has worked.
R: But it is difficult.
Z: It is difficult. There are many things you cannot talk about. Those are two different realities. There is no common reality. And if you know what communication or ...
R: The ARC triangle?
Z: Right. Affinity, reality and communication. And if they do not have
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a common reality with each other, then one corner is missing. And to the degree which reality is missing, affinity suffers. Then you can talk as much as you want to, there is nothing there. Then you can say what you want, it is noise.
R: But one may marry a non-Scientologist man or woman?
Z: Sure, why not.
R: Potthoff, for example, said that his wife had to separate from him because he left, an actual case.
Z: I know Potthoff, the so-called super-Scientologist, who was over in the Org at mealtime on principle, because he was too cheap for anything else. Now he styles himself to be the spokesman for Scientology.
R: But didn't his wife separate from him because he left?
Z: Well sure, because it was simply too difficult for her.
R: For her?
Z: For him, too. They had no common reality. What were they supposed to talk about? You can't just hump each other all day, not at all, if one has no time and is supposed to work the whole day.
R: But how was it with Michael Jackson? Didn't he become a Scientologist?
Z: I don't have an inkling. I don't know. The press does not interest me. I am not crazy about celebrities and I am one. Why should I be crazy about celebrities?
R: Couldn't it be that one is not forced, but advised?
Z: That is what I just tried to talk about, the Case Supervisor says under what conditions, boy, either you handle it and get it straightened out, or you separate from each other. When one person in a family is doing something, be it skiing or Scientology, and the other is basically against it, how could that be productive cooperation? Either the skier gets a skier to drive with him to Arlberg or the skier says, "we have fought about this for 10 years and I don't want to anymore." And then he should separate because he can use the time he was wasting more sensibly elsewhere.
R: What happened with this thing about Thomas Gottschalk? What really was there to it? There is a Swiss Thomas Gottschalk and there is a Munich man, "our" Thomas Gottschalk.
Z: The Munich Thomas Gottschalk had the misfortune that the name "Thomas Gottschalk" was coincidentally on a list of Scientologists. But that was
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the Swiss Thomas Gottschalk. Somebody whispered in somebody's ear at the "Bild" newspaper and they wrote that Thomas Gottschalk is a Scientologist. After that Thomas Gottschalk was plagued, which I cannot understand, because he didn't even belong.
R: The other, a teacher, could really not have been him, because he was a teacher. The Swiss Thomas Gottschalk could not at all afford the half million for OT 8. That is an argument.
Z: Unfortunately, I don't see it that way, he could be him, as I said before, by one of three ways. If he wants it. If he doesn't want it, then that's the way it is.
R: What does IAS mean?
Z: International Association of Scientologists.
R: That's it. Where all Scientologists are members. They can try it out, pay for a year, or be a lifetime member.
Z: I am a Sponsor.
R: Sponsor and Patron?
Z: I'm not a Patron, just my wife.
R: Oh, okay, you're the Sponsor.
Z: I am only a Sponsor.
R: And what is the difference between a Patron and a Sponsor? Is that strictly a matter of money?
Z: One pays more.
R: Does one do it voluntarily? You get this idea and say, "Now I would like to be a Patron"?
Z: There is somebody who asks you. Naturally there are people who advertise for it.
R: There are recruiters.
R: They work out of England or Clearwater, or Germany, too?
Z: All over Germany, even in Munich there is a group with two people.
The IAS has the mission of keeping and protecting Scientology on this planet in that it sees to it that nothing is changed. Or it helps with legal disputes or the like.
R: So is IAS the greatest financial supporter of OSA, if one will?
Z: In the main matters they are their own network. The IAS is a sort of fire department, as we say. They have a war chest.
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R: Your wife is one of the Patrons? She has donated $40,000. Can one also donate that in the form of pictures?
Z: No, they would have to sell the stuff, who's supposed to do that?
R: I know of Helnwein, he donated pictures for Narconon. The sale brought Scientology $150,000 in profit. He was praised in "Celebrity" magazine for donating pictures.
Z: I would have kicked them in the rear, because if they sell a picture I donated, I think that's insubordinate behavior. I also made pictures available to them. For Narconon on Schliersee. Ten pictures of mine were hanging there because it was such a sad building, so I said "shit!" They asked me because I had already helped them to find the building!
R: Why does Helnwein say that he is not a Scientologist, even though he is?
Z: He says he has nothing to do with it for a certain reason, because he has been attacked as a Scientologist.
R: Don't you also think that tactical errors have been made in the USA, I mean by your organization and certain PR departments inside it?
Z: I haven't seen any.
R: But wasn't the attack on Germany too bitter?
Z: That wasn't bitter. I think the reaction here in Germany was very, very strong. But that is only because someone's neck was on the line. Otherwise there would not have been such a strong reaction. When you tell somebody who is very intelligent that he is a stupid sow, he won't take it badly but will say "Look what the cat drug in." But if he really were stupid and somebody came along and called him a stupid sow, then he would knock him down on the spot. Only somebody who would do something like that and has charge on it would react that way.
R: When a story like that is made up about Germany, do you know beforehand what will happen?
Z: If I would be interested in it, yes.
R: The PR department would tell you that, since you are a leading person in Germany?
Z: Yes. I am viewed in America as such. First, I am an artist, and second there is a certain degree of fame there, whether I want it or not. Naturally it was my intention to be especially well-known. Since then I've had other intentions. That is
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now a byproduct, if it happens. Otherwise, it's all the same to me.
R: But didn't you also have an offer in January to go to Washington and take Helnwein's side in the State Department to support the campaign against Germany?
Z: His intentions were entirely different. I left a message for him on his answer machine, but he didn't respond, so I don't know. I would have liked to have known what I was protecting or defending if I would have said something about him. I don't at all know, because it didn't interest me.
R: But if you would have been asked?
Z: If they would have paid my airfare, then I would have gone, yes, of course I would speak out in favor of Scientology. I think Hubbard is one of the greatest guys the history of this planet has ever known. Nobody seems greater to me. Naturally I would do everything I could to help him and to have his ideas put into effect and not be buried. If I am convinced of something, then that is what I do. If I were not convinced of it, then I would not do it.
R: Did you go to the IAS annual celebration?
Z: I didn't drive up there. If I wanted to meet many Scientologists and had the money and the time, that would have been fun. I used to want to found a Celebrity Center, but I only made it as far as one meeting and what happened? The only people that showed up said that they wanted to enter to art field and were hoping to get a boost in their career plans.
R: But there are other SC artists like Helnwein, Pablo Roehrig and Arthur Hubbard. Why don't you get together and do something in common?
Z: I'd be interested. I've recently spoken with Pablo, really we should do something like that. What we do is that we belong to a religious community. So it is a type of religious art. Only it's different. Pablo paints as completely differently as I do, so that it would be hard to recognize as such.
R: But you would still say that your art is Scientology art?
Z: So that would be meant quite definitively.
R: Is it?
R: Is Helnwein's art "Scientology art"? Can we say that
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he can create art which is not Scientology art?
Z: Why should he not be able to do that? Mine is also "Scientology art" only insofar as I am interested in creating nourishment for the spiritual being. I see it like, I see art, in general, from its quality. What Hubbard said is the best definition of art: "art is the combined qualities of communication." When I read that, it hit me like a ton of bricks. Before that I had read all the books in the library to find out what art is. And he said it so that I can agree with him. Art is the combined qualities of communication. Now if they are to be combined, then I must define what quality and communication are. And if I know that, then I can have the truth for free.
R: Have you ever had your art put on exhibit in the International Celebrity Center in L.A.?
R: Wouldn't they organize it?
Z: They would have done it, yes. But I don't have that many things. I have only what is stored here in the house, perhaps 100 works, apart from the prints. That's not enough. I have to live from this. I live from selling these things. Scientologists don't have the money to be able to pay for them.
R: Well, what about John Travolta?
Z: Yeah, well good. Maybe he would buy one. What do I get from John Travolta hanging one of my pictures. Only that I would then be able to say that John Travolta has hung one of my pictures. That is not my thing.
R: Are there meetings for Patrons?
Z: There are. If I happen to be at Flag and they give a Patrons dinner, then naturally I would be invited, too, as a VIP.
R: That is a special honor, isn't it?
Z: That is a special honor. Then we sit together and somebody gives a talk about something. Mainly it is being together.
R: Then you would have been able to meet Helnwein there, or did you meet him there?
Z: If we would have happened to have been there at the same time, then possibly.
R: But, inside of the organization, there are very many members and very many Patrons?
Z: I have no idea.
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R: Today there are approximately 2,000 Patrons.
Z: I hope it is more.
R: There is more than there used to be. The number doubled between 1988 and 1995.
Z: I would hope so. I have held several lectures which said that the sensible thing to do was to be a Patron, if someone could do that. I am not one myself, since I don't have the money.
R: But your wife has made it.
Z: She's done it. For her it was important enough.
R: There was no disagreement about that? About her giving out her money like that.
Z: That is her business. She would not have said anything about it, either, if I would have done it.
R: That is interesting. You do everything like that?
Z: According to the opportunity, that is much more favorable.
R: Do you have any free time when you take courses in Flag in Fort Harrison? Those go on the whole day.
Z: You can break it up. You can just study in the morning. Study the morning, afternoon and evening, or just in the afternoon, or not study at all. I'll tell you something. We've been in Clearwater and both of us decided that we would then take a proper swimming vacation. Before then we lived in Sandcastle, that is a hotel, quite nice, perhaps a little run-down. Since then they have renovated it beautifully. I have not been there since it has been done; I've only seen pictures.
I said there, "You know what, we have already been studying for 8 days, now let's take a beautiful, proper vacation." We wanted to rent a room in a hotel right on the beach. So we called up in advance and we went to the hotel, with gold chains and these pimp clothes, the employees came. What we didn't get into, funny. We call that "flows," but you probably call it something else. But you get the idea what the mood was there. The mood was on sexual display. That interested neither me nor my wife. I asked her if we liked it there, if we should stay. Naturally Scientologists, if they are in Clearwater, think that they should be studying. We had gotten the time and said, no, this time we won't, we'll go on vacation here, and not even here, but we're going someplace else. After four or five people babbled at us, we convinced them that what we wanted to do was the best for us. Since we did not back off,
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they realized it, too. They wished us a pleasant time and we were off to Clearwater Beach. We were in this shitty hotel for two hours and I said, "You know something, I want to go back again." So we went back and stayed in an old hotel that night. We really wanted to get away from the whole Scientology scene.
R: Just to get some rest?
Z: Well, yeah, we just wanted to go in the water and bathe and lie in the sand and be stupid. Just turn completely brown.
R: That's a lot of fun, too.
Z: Sure that's a lot of fun, but for how long?
R: We have gotten to know each other now, and if I had a house in Clearwater, then I would just tell you to stop by sometime.
Z: Hey, I'll tell you something. I know about 400 people there who invite me, should I visit them all? If I just scheduled 14 days, then act like I don't have any time, and do exactly what I wanted to do.
R: You're right there.
Z: Time for me is too valuable. It's a struggle. Not that one is not invited, nor that one would not accept. For them I'm a celebrity from Germany, and an artist, besides.
R: You are the longest-practicing Scientologist in Germany, you've been a member the longest time?
Z: One can say that, yes.
R: In Europe?
Z: I don't know, but in Germany in any case.
R: Are you a kind of superboss compared to Helnwein, who's only been around since 1972?
Z: I mention it now and then, when I get a contract. I talk about the way things used to be. SC used to be the Young People's Sect. Back then I was 32. So I was really no longer a younger person, but I was a member of the Youth Sect. And when I turned 40, it was still being called a Youth Sect, and I began to feel insulted. Today I am a grandfather.
R: One can see there how times have changed.
Z: That is why the attacks have been directed toward something else. We are criminal, or, as Bluem says, money-launderers.
R: Are your children also in?
Z: Mine? No. Our daughter is living in Milan and lives maybe
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two minutes away from the Org in Milan, she has not been there once, why should she? I told her, "I wish you would find a Scientologist, or at least nice people you could talk with who won't lie to you. Instead of that, she has another guy. Ha ha ha. That's just the way it is.
R: So you don't have any problems with her because she is not a Scientologist?
Z: Why? That's her decision. A being is an original being in a body of varying age. When they happen to be our children, they happen to be in bodies that are genetically close to ours. It's the body that is close, not me. It is possible that I could think that our children have come to us and taken a body which we coincidentally produced because they wanted to be close to us. But that is sheer imagination. If I ask the children, maybe they would say, ah, the old person has a screw loose. Ha ha ha.
R: How is it that children don't want their parents anymore because they are not Scientologists. I remember "Report," a television program in which parents were crying about their son.
Z: Yes, I've seen that recently, where the two old people were howling there.
R: Yes, how they cried.
Z: I would not like to know how the parents are, and when I saw them I thought, boy, am I happy that I'm not their child. I said that spontaneously as I saw it.
R: But can something like that happen?
Z: Of course that can happen. Let's say a son, let's say Son X finds out about Scientology and wants to do it. He does not have the financial means and goes to his father and says, look, I have found something great, can you give me the money, I want to take a course and get auditing. And the father says, what is that, is that Opus Dei? [a type of cult] Then he says, no, that is Scientology. Oh, he says, Scientology, no, you won't get a penny from me for that. Good, then the father won't change his mind and the son goes to work and gets his money and does it anyway. Sometime the contact to the parents will slack off because the reality, the ARC, no longer agrees. There is no common reality there anymore. The youth does not really get from the parents what they claim they're giving him, namely, "we only wanted the best for you." Now the son has recognized what is best for him and that is exactly what they don't want. Then he knows something doesn't check out here
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at all. And so people get further apart from each other. But it doesn't have to be that way: they hear "Scientology" and immediately call up Hartwig [a critic of Scientology] or I don't know where and say, "our son wants to be a Scientologist, what do we do?" They make a state affair out of it and the son does not particularly want to show his solidarity for them, never again, possibly. And then Scientology suggests to the son that he get things straightened out; if you want to continue with Scientology, we recommend you bring up separation. I can also understand that.
R: And how will things go now, the relationship between Scientology and the German agencies.
Z: I have no idea.
R: Will the various parties sit down at one table together?
Z: That can be expected, because that would be good for the state. That would be good, in order to fight unemployment, that would be very good for many things. One can only hope.
R: A turn towards peace? Is that also David Miscavige's intention in Los Angeles, to turn toward peace?
Z: If you see what kind of energy we are using to keep all these politicians at a distance, that we are able to do what we want to do. These energies also cost money. That costs us the money which we are contributing.
R: Is that the IAS money and the Patron money?
Z: Who is that, the IAS? That is all of us. That is as if one says the state is doing it. I am also the state, I pay taxes here, even for these assholes who revile me. If Mr. Bluem reviles me as a criminal and money-launderer, I have to say that I am paying a part of his salary and for his post as Minister, however much that may be, with my taxes. And what does he know about what he is saying.
R: So if Scientology could do everything that Hubbard suggested, then this "war chest" would no longer be necessary. The membership contributions for the IAS would not be necessary either?
Z: Completely right. I'll have to say you're right. Do you know the goals of Scientology? Society without war, without insanity. If they did not exist, then everything would already be alright. How much could the state lower taxes if they didn't have to spend it on that type of nonsense. How much does a Starfighter cost now? 90 million, isn't it? Let's say 100 million, that is money, too. Why? So that a person, whose education
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costs DM 700,000, flies through the air in this device in order to keep an enemy who is not there from coming in. Now if that is not mental delusion, then I don't know what is. If this money were to be invested in social funds, then Bluem would not have this problem about fleecing the elderly.
R: I think it's about time to communicate, for both sides.
Z: That would be lovely.
R: That is the only way. Both sides have something to gain.
Z: It would be better for both sides. What I said before about Dev-T, unnecessary activity without a goal, without meaning, without survival.
R: But could you talk with David Miscavige about something like that?
Z: Yes, of course.
R: And you would do it, too.
Z: If I wouldn't be wasting his time.
R: One could do that, but you do it, too.
Z: Yes, certainly.
R: So, when you are in Los Angeles, then you could tell him, I would like to see you, could we meet? And then he would receive you.
Z: Yes, of course.
R: Would that happen in a casual atmosphere?
Z: What is a casual atmosphere?
R: Like where we're sitting now.
Z: Yes, that is no different.
R: My impression, from many Scientology magazines and newspapers, is very military, especially in the Sea Org with the strict bearing.
Z: You have to look at Hubbard's history, and perhaps that also has something to do with the time track. That should also be considered. There it is on the hat, "Revenimus." The motto of the Sea Org is "Revenimus." That means, "we come back." We will return. And just imagine, purely hypothetically, the case, here is a child, there is a time track. And on this time track there are various social systems which have become so standardized over thousands and millions of years, that they have stagnated as a society, it could also be, at least it is completely conceivable. Everybody is very, very good, everybody is very, very clever. In essence nothing happens. How could one change that? It is feasible that one, in this flow of time, makes a 90 degree turn to another and sends
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him into this areas and says, "now take off, do what you want to, but make it back again and bring us something new. That could be how the stagnation of our society is, too. And it could be that all of us here have been sent in that type of time pocket. In the calculation of time, there is this phenomenon of pockets of time. Let's assume that would be a pocket of time and we'll go in that direction. And that is what we do so long with all our lousy experiences which we have accumulated and it appears as though there have been awfully many attempts and Hubbard has succeeded in turning that around and found a method of solving the problem. When we then travel back into the normal time contingent, to this stagnating society, then we could be the teacher and somehow bring back this society. That wouldn't be that bad. I would like to go along with that. And that comes out of "Revenimus." That is one explanation for it.
R: Yes, that is OK. Well then, I thank you for the nice reception and the friendly acceptance. I am now much richer in information which I did not have before, one also had many false concepts. Generally speaking, one does not get certain information.
Z: You could buy the stuff.
R: Yes, but one does not get certain things that way, that which no one knows or wants to know.
Z: So, I'll tell you. When I got to know my wife, that was in 1977, she had gotten into difficulties with Yoga. A friend of hers said, I know somebody in Munich, at the time I was married in Munich, who did Yoga like that and also did something that I don't exactly know what it was. I think he can help you. Then there was an emergency call, a little tiny voice from Tegernsee, which naturally made me very happy. I thought I'll take a drive out there. We talked with each other and I told her the same, about Yoga I'll tell you nothing at all, I stopped doing that. I am doing something entirely different and that is what we'll talk about, OK? She agreed. We talked, for rather a long time, and naturally we fell head over heels in love. I wrote out a list of books for her that she should order to get to know the subject area better. She ordered those books, and she came to the Munich Org and they were totally confused, what is that then, here comes someone indeed, and she has a list of books. Where did she get them and what did she have in mind? And everybody thought, Oh God, here comes somebody who will us somehow take us for
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a ride. I put them at ease with a telephone call.
I hope that I could at least say as much about you, that you could start something with us.
R: I think it would be well stated that one can see much from another watch tower. And perhaps also more relative, everything not always so hate-filled, or shall we say negative.
Z: That would be fine. If it has that effect, then the afternoon was not in vain. Independently of that, I think that you are sympathetic and because of that it was rewarding to spend three hours together.
R: Then I still wish you a beautiful evening.
Z: Many thanks!
Helnwein & Scientology, Lies & Treason by Peter Reichelt, 1997 - Page 489
Waki Zoellner and Peter Reichelt in Gmund on Tegernsee on February 17, 1997
This translation originated at http://cisar.org.
The url of the original translation was http://members.tripod.com/German_Scn_News/has00.htm
(Scientology got that account terminated when Joe Cisar published his thesis on the press and public relations of L. Ron Hubbard.)
The version of this translation is August 21, 2000
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