that's just a giant cockroach.
MR. LeCHER: They are to us, too, but we call them palmetto bugs; it sounds better.
MR. RAY: So, to get the basics over: When I was first there, I got extremely skeptical about the whole thing, all
right? I didn't know what to believe and what not to believe because I had been lied to on five different occasions so
far. I didn't know what else was a lie.
So, when they sa id, "We'd like to put-you into an auditing chair and start auditing you," I said, "No way." They said,
"Why not?" I said, "Because I keep getting different stories from different people. I've been lied to, and I'm not going
to sit there*and let you guys do something to me and I don't know what it's all about." I said, "I'll-read anything you
want me to read, but I won't sit in that chair."
.*So, they sent me to Ethics. So, I went into Ethics and they said -- they have a thing called overts and withholds,
all right? And what that is is if you do something
MRS. GARVEY: Overts and what?
MR. LeCHER:. Overts and what?
MR. RAY: Overts and withholds.
MR. LeCHER: Oh, overts
MRS. GARVEY: Okay.
MR. LeCHER: -- and withholds..
MR. RAY: Right.
MRS. GARVEY: Okay.
MR. RAY: Okay?
And overts is when you do something that you know to be against your own ethical code or moral code, okay, and
you hold it within your head, okay, and you just keep it there. That's an overt. And withhold is holding it there.
So, they took me in there and said, "Okay. Start writing up all your overts and withholds. We want to know all about
it." Okay. So. I started -
MR. LeCHER: That wait. That may be a belief, and I'm advised it's getting dangerous. So, let's -
MRS. GARVEY: Well, he's just explaining a series of events.
MR. LeCHER: Is it all right, Mr. Flynn? I don't know where it's going to end up.
MR. FLYNN: Go ahead. I think we can go forward. Tell them why -- what they told you
MR. RAY: The reason I was writing up these overts and withholds, they told me, was because I refused their
processing. They're not used to that. They
MR. LeCHER: That may be to the benefit that may be considered religious. It may be 1-ike "What is a sin?" And we
don't really want to know what it says.
MR. RAY: Excuse me.
MR. LeCHER: Yes.
MR. RAY: They never indicated to me that it was religious. They never indicated to me that that was a religious
belief, okay? From day one when I got into Scientology, I was instructed that this was - their auditing and their tech -
was scientifically proven to work, all right? From day one I was told that, and was told that all along, okay?
So, I wrote up these overts and withholds and I handed it to the guy that was handling this Ethics Cycle, okay?--And
he looked at it and he's going, "Okay. Well, you've got to do this and this and this. And what he was telling me was
I've got to do work, physical labor. They call it "mest work." M-E-S-T stands for matter, energy, space, and time,
okay? So, I had to do physical labor.
So, they said, "We're going to put you in the housekeeping section." So, they put me in the housekeeping section,
gave me a cart, you know, and loaded it all up.
I had to go clean public rooms.
Well, when I first started, they gave me a whole floor to do by myself, which is about, oh, I'd say, thirty-one, thirty-
two rooms, all right? I -- "How do you expect me to finish these?" Okay. And they said, "Well, youlre one of the top
beings on this planet. That's why you're here, and you've got to do it." I said, "You've got to be kidding."
MR. LeCHER: Ladies and gentlemen, please. It may be humorous, but we don't want to laugh and make a circus of
these hearings. This is important and we want to keep some decorum.
Yes, Mr. Ray.
MR. RAY: Okay, well, I gave it my best shot. I
finished it; it took me about, oh, twelve, thirteen hours.
And it was very hard on me physically, because the
weather here in Florida gets incredibly hot. There's no
air conditioning in the building. In the public rooms,
they had small air conditioners, okay, but none in the
hallways and so forth. There is no air conditioning.
It's a regular hotel room, the public rooms.
MR. LeCHER: So, public rooms are hotel rooms?
MR. RAY: Yeah, they're regular hotel rooms.
MRS. GARVEY: For people who come to -- I
MR. LeCHER: That's a public --
MRS. GARVEY: As opposed to a staff member?
MR. RAY: Yeah, as opposed to a
MR. LeCHER: They clean in the restaurants and
MR. RAY: Right. Staff members work and run the
hotel, okay, and deliver the processing and training.
The public are the ones that they have come in and get
the money from.
MR. LeCHER: Can the public go in those rooms?
We, the public.
MRS. GARVEY: Can we, the general public, walk
MR. LeCHER: Can we, the public, walk into those
MR. RAY: They claim you can, okay? They claim
that any publAc person, anybody off the street, can walk
in, look around like a regular hotel. But I have found
that not to be true.
I was friends with the security guard down at
the front door; his name was Alex -- I don't remember
his last name. And somebody came by off the streets,
was just looking around, and read "A Religious Retreat
for the Church of Scientology." He wanted to-go and
look around. Well, they quickly -- him, and they called
another security guard, grabbed him on each arm and
escorted him out very quickly. And that's the story
about looking around. But -- okay.
MR. LeCHER: Continue, then, with your travelogue.
MR. RAY: Okay.
So, then instead of going into real big detail
on this anymore after working and doing all these
rooms that I was required to do - and I did get them
done and I did work hard - they promoted me, okay? And
1 was in charae of the housekeeping services for all of
And what they didn't tell me was -- they said,
"Well, yeah, you're going to be able to tell these
peoplewhat to do." I thought I was going to sit down
and do paperwork, okay? Well, no. My rooms -- my room
quota each d-&y went from thirty-two to seventy-eight,
MR. LeCHER: That's a promotion.
MR. RAY: That's a promotion.
So, they have -- on the contract, they say, "If
your statistics are up" -- let me -- let me explain
that. Every time you clean a room, you leave a little
piece of paper in there that says my name, you knowl
"I'm your housekeeper," and there's numbers by these
words. one says, "Incredible," you know, "Okay, Good, Bad, Terrible," and they've got to circle a number by the
word that they feel how the room was cleaned, okay? Well, you pick these up each day and drop them off. And
that's how they calculate your statistics; you add up the numbers, divided by the numbers that you have, and there's
your number, okay? It's on average.
well, if your statistics are up, every two weeks you're supposed to have twenty-four hours off, called liberty. it's more
like the Navy than anything else. Well, since they were shorthanded, I would keep asking them for my time off
because I was working, oh, anywhere from eighteen to twenty hours a day. I wasn't getting much sleep; I was very
tired all the time. And they wouldn't have it to me. They said, "No. 'We can't -we can't afford to let you go. These
rooms won't get clean."
I wanted the rooms to get clean and I wanted to be able -- the public, you kow, to have what they're paying for. So, I
went ahead and did it. Well, that went on for about nine weeks, okay?
And one day I said, "Uh-huh, I'm leaving." And I took off. I took my day off. I just went down to the beach and slept
on the beach, walked around, got a
suntan. And when I came back, oh-oh. They were angry with me. They said, "David, you're going to have to go to
Ethics and write up your overts and withholds again." So, I did that.
The thing that -- the thing that really kills,me about this whole -- this whole operation is they -- by the questions they
ask and the things they do, they open you up to your innermost personal self, okay? And as I'm sure all of you have
done at one time or another, opened yourself up, you're extremely vulnerable, all right? They'll pick you up and they'll
raise you so high you feel like you're on top of the world and, then, they'll drop you and they'll let you feel like a
bottomless pit, all right? And those are the kinds of terror and searing emotions that go through a person's mind
when they're there, okay?
They want to leave; they want to help themselves. You get physically tired. Sometimes, you don't even have time to
take a shower. Ninety percent of the people that walk around there just -- they stink; they're not clean, okay? The
people there are not clean. The buildinq is not clean. The building is an extreme fire hazard, okay? They have boxes
stacked up all over the place. out in the garage they have old furniture just
dumped out there, mattresses piled up, or they had this when I was there, all right? 'And if that would have been
ignited, there would have been a lot of people killed, lot of people. They have a very old fire alarm system.
They told us there as staff members, if you saw fire somewhere, run down to reception, let them know. They've got
to run around behind -- there's a reception room. They had to go around behind it, flip the switch for the alarm
system, get on the phone and call the fire department, all right?
well, two things: Number one, they only had one
elevator in operation at that time; they had three ele
vators there. It's certainly slow and certainly crowded,
okay, because you're talking about - at the Fort Harrison
itself - about four hundred staff members and three
hundred public.okay? That's seven hundred people.
And with one elevator in operation.
So, if you saw a fire, it was quicker to run down the stairs. Well, that still takes time. Hypothetical situation: If a fire
would have broken out on the seventh floor - there's ten floors - my guess is that that seventh floor and the floor
above it, the eighth floor, would have been an inferno by the time that alarm would have been set off, okay, for the
amount of steps.
Also, they packed people that were coming in -they sent -- they have people come in here to Clearwater from
organizations and missions all over the world to do what's called the Flag Executive Briefing Course, FEBC for short.
And it was supposed to help them to go back to their own organizations and get more people into the organization,
therefore, bring in more money. This was all based on money, okay? "How much income we could get.
Every week, when we had a staff meeting, "How much money did we get?" That was the first thing; everything was
secondary to that, all right?
Well, as these students came in, a guy that I bunked with was in charge of putting these people in their rooms. His
name was Mike Gravell; he's the Commanding Officer of Area Estates Org. And he was putting in a room, twelve by
sixteen, twenty-five people to one room and all of their belongings.
MR. LeCHER: Twenty-five -- twelve by sixteen?
MR. RAY: Yes. Twenty-five people
MR. LeCHER: In this city?
MR. RAY: In this city.
MR. LeCHER: In the Fort Harrison?
MR. RAY: In the Fort Harrison.
MR. LeCHER: What floor?
MR. RAY: Third, fourth, and fifth.
MR. LeCHER: Third, fourth, and fifth. Have you got that, Mr. Shoemaker?
MR. RAY: This began in the beginning of May and was really starting to get going when I left, okay? And my guess
is that it's going on now just as strong as ever.
MR. LeCHER: Third, fourth, and fifth?
MR. RAY: Third, fourth, and fifth floors.
MR. LeCHER: How many restrooms to twenty five people?
MR. RAY: One.
MR. LeCHER: One.
So, there's just no way you can all possibly take a shower, them-. So, no wonder, your original statement is
MR. RAY: You had to take -- I walked into the rooms occasionally to take pillows out of the rooms because we
didn't have enough for the public people, so I would have to take them away from the staff.
Well, I looked on back of the door and they had what's called a shower schedule. They started at sixthirty. The first
person went from sixthirty to six
thirty-five; second person from six-thirty-five to sixforty, okay, ongoing -- five-minute showers up to max limit -maximum.
MR. LeCHER: If someone took ten, it would ruin the whole train.
MR. RAY: If someone took ten, they'd
MRS. GARVEY: He'd get killed.
MR. RAY: Yeah, about five and-a-half, somebody else would go in there and just yank him out.
MR. LeCHER: Okay. Continue.
MR. RAY: Well, what was going on through my mind the whole time I was there okay, is "If we're really supposed to
be helping clear this planet, okay,. and we're supposed to be benefitting everyone on this planet, why are we only
dealing with the people that have money and lots of it," okay? And I would ask these questions and I would get no
answers, or no straight answers anyway.
But I would notice from dealing with the public and I dealt with every public person who came in and out of that
building, all right - that people that were there trying to get their training and processing to help themselves and didn't
have a whole lot of money would get treated very badly. And they would. And the people
that came in there and had a whole lot of money and they were there just spending money and showing off, you
know, whatever they -- they like to show off; they like to flash their money. Those are the people that would get
special attention, okay?
And I was always getting instructions down from the Accommodations Counselor to take care of these people that
had these big, fancy rooms and had lots of money, you know, do anything they wanted to do, okay? And we'd be
moving refrigerators in and out of there with no dollies, me and one other guy. We'd carry them up and down the
stairs. What does a refrigerator weigh, about three hundred pounds? Okay.
MR. HATCHETT: Yes.
MR. RAY: And beds the same way, okay, up and down stairs, no dollies. This -- on and on like this. And I put in,
like I said, eighteen, twenty hours a day.
And I'd complain about it and they'd give me a bad time.
Another thing that really bothered me. When I was in that room, I was what they considered a peon, since I was
brand new to the Sea Org., okay? All those executives I lived with felt like they were high and mighty, and they just
loved to pick on me, okay, because
.J -.L V r
I asked them questions. And they would pick on me.
MR. LeCHER: What questions would you ask them?
MR. RAY: Oh, I asked them questions about the
money: how much money was coming in and out each week;
what kind of jobs they did, what their jobs entailed. I
wanted to know all I could-. How come -- "How come you
guys aren't out there picking up the people on the
streets that don't have any money, okay, and showing them
how to make some money so they can do something with
~themselves," okay? Stuff like that.
MR. LeCHER: How did they pick on you?
MR. RAY: Well, I'd be sitting in the chair, watching television, which was my favorite thing to do if -any time of f I had; I didn't sleep very much. And they'd
walk in there and pick me up out of the chair and put
me in another one and say, "I want this chair because
it's right in front of the TV set, and you can't say
nothing about it." And I'd say, "Oh.' yeah?" Well, me,
you know, I'm -- I've got a fuse about that long, okay?
And I'd say something back and they'd strike at me, okay?
And I got into four physical fights on four different occasions, one~of which I was trying to leave and
take some time off, and he just hauled off and punched
me because he didn't know any better way to stop me.
MR. LeCHER: He -- you wanted to leave? You wanted liberty again?
MR. RAY: Yes, I wanted to leave and
MR. LeCHER: And he wanted to keep you in the Fort Harrison Hotel?
MR. RAY: Y eah.
I wanted to leave and go down to the beach and get some sleep. I could not sleep in that room. There were bugs
crawling all over the place; it smelled real bad.
One night I was.told by the guys in the room it was a wolf spider - but one night I was laying there and I kept feeling
these little bites on my body. I didn't know what it was, these little sharp pain things. And so, I got,up pretty early
and decided to take a shower, walked-in, looked down, and the whole side of my body was covered with blood. And
so, I washed it off and looked, and there were a whole bunch of little bumps on my body. So, I walked back over to
my bed real quick, flipped back the covers, and there was this huge, brown spider. And I smashed it, to say the
So, I went to the Medical officer, and I started running a fever. And I and there was no way I could work. I needed to
lay down and get some sleep. So, I
went in there, and he said, "What kind of overts and
withholds do you have about spiders?" Sick. And I
said, "Well, I just need to relax. Can I see a doctor?"
And he said, "No, you can't see a doctor." And he says,
"Anyway, can you afford it? How much money do you have?"
I said, "Well, I have about five dollars." He says,
"Well, we don't pay for your doctor's expenses. That's
something you're going to have to save for if you want to
see a doctor." okay. "What we can do" --
MR. LeCHER: And you were making 8.60 a week at
MR. RAY: Nine-sixty.
MR. LeCHER: Nine-sixty.
MR. RAY: And it -- later on, it increased to
twelve dollars, but not during the time that I got sick.
Just about two months before I left, it went up to
twelve dollars and that's as high as it got.
.So, the Medical Officer, he would not -- and his
name is Gary Pippenburg.
MR.'LeCHER: Gary Pippenburg?
MR. RAY: Yes.
He -- at that time. He I think,
And he wouldn't do anything for me. And he said
he says, "Well, why don't you go talk to your supervisor. See if you can get some time off to lay down."
I went to talk to my supervisor and the second I -that I mentioned that I was sick, okay, he got extremely violent in
his tone of voice to me and started yelling at me and screaming at me, saying, you know, "Don't get sick. We need
you to work. You can't have any time off, period. There's no way we're going to let you have any time off." And I just
said, "Wait a minute."
I was just too tired to argue. So, I would go up with my cart, like I was cleaning rooms, and I would open up one of
the rooms that was empty and I'd 'Lay down and go to sleep. I was just so tired.' There was -- I could barely carry
myself up the stairs, just barely make it. And I'd going there and go to sleep. And I did that several times. And
eventually - this was right before I left - I wound up in the RPF, Rehabilitation Project Force. And was I in for a
What it is is a group of people that have done something, what they consider, against the Church of Scientology,
okay? The Rehabilitation Project Force is the last thing they do to try to save your being before they kick you out,
okay? And I was scared to death to be kicked out, because me, along with everybody else who's
there, has a basic need inside to do something good for somebody else, okay? And we were led to believe that we
were doing something good for a whole lot of people, and-we didn't want to lose that. I didn't want to lose that. So, I
said, "Okay. I'll go into the RPF."
So, I went in there. And basically, what it is is emptying all the garbage out of the restaurants, okay? Restaurant
garbage is wet; it's old food it's got flies and all kinds of bugs crawling around in it. And we would pick up the cans,
take them down to the garbage dump, dump them into the garbage dump. And then, at the end of the day, we'd have
to go in there in our shoes and stomp it down.
And I don't know what kind of diseases we were exposed to, but we were getting some really wierd ones, okay
MR. LeCHER: Get inside the dumpster and stomp it? .MR. RAY: Yeah. It just literally -- I mean -
MR. LeCHER: It was too small or was that punishment?
MR. RAY: No. The dumpster was too small.
And you'd get inside there and this restaurant garbage would be just like quicksand. You 'd go all the way to the
bottom. You'd be, you know, more than waist
deep in this stuff, all right, and it smelled awful. And then, you'd have to go back and clean up, okay?
I And the food that they served the RPFers was just rotten. They served all the leftovers after all of the staff on the
whole base, all the buildings, ate, okay? Then, we ate alone, whatever was left over. And it wasn't very good. And it
didn't give us the nourishment that we needed to keep our bodies going.
MR. LeCHER: What would your typical diet consist of after -- the leftovers?
MR. RAY: Good grief. It would be pieces -- sometimes, pieces of meat, pieces of beef or chicken or pork, usually a
salad and a drink. But the salad was wilted and it smelled rotten, like, it had been -- you know, somebody had
dumped sour milk on it. The cheese was no good. It was-all molded, but molded to the point it was fuzzy, you know,
like a peach. one time they had french fries there, and I picked up a handful of french fries and started eating them
and I found a french fried palmetto bug in my french fries. And I wondered how many I had eaten, you know, when I
saw that one. So, I threw that out.
So, my diet, my personal diet -- I'd run across the street and get myself a handful of cookies, and that's
basically what I lived-on, cookies, because that's the only decent thing that they had to eat, in my opinion.
MR. LeCHER: Where did-you.get the cookies?
MR. RAY: There's' a little health food store across the street from the Fort Harrison, right across the street.
MR. LeCHER: Well, for 9.60 a week, I guess that's all you could eat.
MR. RAY: Nine-sixty a week, I had to skimp as well, I smoke, okay, and I was smoking when I was there. Nine-
sixty a week will buy a carton of cigarettes and maybe a tube of toothpaste,' and that's it, not counting soap,
shampoo, any toiletries that you needed. If your shoes wore out, you're going to have to get yourself a new pair of
shoes. If your pants wore out, you'd have to get yourself a new pair of pants. And this just doesn't cover it.
.MR. LeCHER: Did you have family money that could support you in this cause that you were involved in?
MR. RAY: Yes, my mother and my two sisters who are still members of the Church of Scientology.
And I would like to -- I have a couple of things to say about that. The biggest conflict I had coming over here from the
west coast to give my testimony is that my
mother and my two sisters are still involved in the Church of Scientology. My mother is doing Advanced
Enlightenment courses. My sister is in the Sea Organization in Hollywood/Los Angeles, okay? And my youngest
sister, Jennifer, who's fourteen, is living, you know, at one of their hotels there called The Manor, and she has not
even gone to school this year, okay, because they keep putting into her mind that schools are no good. "You want
Ron Hubbard's technology. That's all you want, that's all you need. We'll graduate you," okay?
But what really bothers me is that that, aside from my mother, is my whole family, okay? And this is going to be
publicized within the Church of Scientology, and I'm going to lose that after today, all right? And that just tears me
apart. That's my family, okay?
This is -- this is the Church of Scientology's advanced attack, whatever, is that they -- they attack you on a personal
level, okay? And that's the greatest attack anybody could ever do is when they attack you on a personal level. They
could come up and punch you in the mouth. Sure, it's going to sting for a while. And if any of you have ever broken
up with your girlfriend, you know that hurts for a while. That hurts a lot longer
than a punch in the mouth, okay? And that's the way they attack you.
MR. LeCHER: You've said so much, I -
MR. RAY: I'd like the opportunity to say something about the Guardian's office.
MR. LeCHER: I'd like to know about the Guardian's Office.
MR. RAY: Okay. Every two weeks on Sunday a representative from the Guardian's Office Worldwide, which is here
in Clearwater -- I'm not sure where; I believe it's in Clearwater Building., up around LRH personal office.
MR. LeCHER: In Clearwater t he old bank, Clearwater Building.
MR. RAY: Yeah. It's on the corner of Fort Harrison and Cleveland. .All right.
We had one briefing that I specifically remember, and a specific case that we were told about.
Do you remember this big thing about Jonestown, the GuyAna cult?
MR. LeCHER: Yes.
MR. RAY: Okay.
Well, they stated to us that they had done research into what happened there and that it was the U.S. government
that poisoned them with nerve gas, put cyanide in the punch to make it look like that, just to scare away
Scientology. Okay. We were informed 'that., led to believe that, and that was-just pounded into our heads. So, our
feelings about the U.S. government were not too good.
MR. HATCHETT: How old were you when you were in Clearwater'P
MR. RAY: I was seventeen years old at the time I was there.
MR. LeCHER: You were seventeen at the time?
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. LeCHER: Have you ever graduated from high school?
MR. RAY: Yes, on the CHSPE, California High School Proficiency Examination.
MR. LeCHER: Well, you seem like a very bright young man and a very ambitious young man and a very gutsy guy
to do what you've done and get out and to take the chance to lose your family, and I believe that to be true.
Do you have any fears that your mother and sisters
may be given special dutie's to
MR. RAY: Well
MR. LeCHER: -- because of this?
MR. RAY: -- it's possible. I don't really want to say because I don't know, okay?
The Church of Scientology doesn't scare me to the point where I'm afraid of physical harm, okay? But they do scare
me in the fact that L. Ron Hubbard got so many people, in the millions, okay, into this Scientology organization.
Each and every Sea Org. member is being trained with LRH technology to understand and to think like him, okay?
L. Ron Hubbard got all these millions of people into this cult. As these people grow and develop in the technology,
can you imagine what two thousand L. Ron Hubbards are going to do?
MR. LeCHER: Do you think, then, that they are promoting and conceiving junior L. Ron Hubbards, future L. Ron
Hubbards? Is that what you're saying?
MR. RAY: Each and every Sea Org-member is a future L. Ron Hubbard, each and every one.
MR. LeCHER: I'd like to know about the children. I have here [a] nursery with ten -- with five and ten children playing
on the floor and somebody -- were there
minors that were staying in Clearwater against their parents' wishes?
MR. RAY: Yes, one specific that I know of.
MR. LeCHER: Tell me, specifically, what you know.
MR. RAY: Her name was Nadine Meader, M-e-a-d-e-r. She was thirteen years old at the time I was there. And one
night she came to talk to me because we were friends, we worked in the same organization. She was crying
because her parents had sent her a little nasty letter about how they don't like the Church of Scientology, and the
second half of it was very loving on how they want her back.
Well, she had shown that to a lady by the name of Laurie Englehart, who was the Commanding Officer of Public
Estates Organization, okay? And she had given her a lecture about how great Scientology is and how much better
off Scientology was than her parents. She was just in tears; she didn't know what to do. It was tearing her in half.
MR. LeCHER: How did she get there in the first place-at thirteen?
MR. RAY: I never found that out.
My guess is this: They do send out missions, okay, with See Org. missionaires on recruiting missions. And
they go out; they go all over the world, okay, and they find people and they talk to people. They'll talk to anybody.
They'll talk to somebody off the streets, okay, and try to recruit them into the Church of Scientology
MR. LeCHER: It's just amazing to me how a child can get involved. How would she be there against their wishes? I
mean, she's thirteen, without her parents' consent, they want her back, they want her home, yet, she's forced to
Is she still there today to your knowledge or has she left?
MR. RAY: To my knowledge, she's still there.
The reason that she's there, -- the reason you feel. the pressure is because they tap on that piece that's inside of
every one of us
MR. LeCHER: Everybody has a button?
.MR. RAY: -- to do good, okay? There's a part of us in every one of us that wants to do some good for* other people,
all right? And they pull on that, and they tug it, and they twist it around and turn it upside down till you don't know
which way is up, all right? And that's why you feel like, if you leave, you're going to be condemned forever, okay.
That's the way
they make you feel.
You feel like, if you leave, you're going to be
condemned forever. So, you don't want to leave no matter
how bad it gets.
MR. LeCHER: Tell me about the Cadet Org.
MR. RAY: All I know about the Cadet Org. is that
there are they are minors that are in that org.
They're __ what they consider minors is anybody under
sixteen. If you're over sixteen, you've got to work
like a regular staff member.
But they would do physical labor, hard physical
labor. They'd rotate from building to building and do
odd jobs. And they'd play video games all night. They'd
come back -- they'd get off work about four-thirty, and
there they'd be until two o'clock in the morning playing
video games.---No schooling.
MR. LeCHER: Well, video games, are they being -do you put a quarter in them or are they --
MR. RAY: You put a quarter in them.
MR. LeCHER: So, the children -- the children
have to get -- we worry about their license because we
have to license those machines in the City of Clearwater.
And apparently, we didn't even know they had video games.
Are there video games in the Fort Harrison Hotel?
MR. RAY: Yeah. They're in the Lemon Tree Restaurant.
MR. LeCH-ER: At 8.60 a week
MR. RAY: Nine-sixty.
MR. LeCHER: 9.60, you really can't play many games at a quarter
MR. RAY.- No.
MR. LeCHER: all that long.
MR. CALDERBANK: Unless you're good.
MR. LeCHER: Unless you're good, as Mr. Calderbank says.
Twenty percent of the staff are under twenty years old; is that -- or about twenty years old?
MR. RAY: Yes. There are about -- there are some staff members, Fred Hodgekinson is one and Ernie - I don't
remember his last name - but they work in the Engineer'ing Department, and they do physical labor, and they're
about seventy years old, all right? And they give these guys auditing and processing, you know, to help -- they've got
one of them's got some serious back problems. -Well, they tell them that through this auditing, they'll cure that so
they can go ahead and work. And they push them just as hard as they push anybody else. And I've seen
them collapse twice.
MR. LeCHER: The older people?
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. LeCHER: If someone wanted to go there from California or from Clearwater for that matter and had money, a
'known money person, what would it cost them to stay at the Fort Harrison Hotel with meals?
MR. RAY: With
MR. LeCHER: Or without meals, however they charge.
MR. RAY: Okay.
With meals, with their room, and with their training or their processing, because that's why they're there, it would
come out to an average of a hundred dollars a day or more
MR. LeCHER: That's
MR. RAY: That's very conservative. Per person, okay. And there is an average of three hundred people there at any
one given time, public paying.
MR. LeCHER: How many?
MR. RAY: Three hundred.
MR. LeCHER: Three hundred.
What about poor people that are motivated but just don't have the money?
MR. RAY: They leave them alone.
MR. LeCHER: What about blacks, minorities? Do. they cater to minority people?
'MR. RAY: Yes, they do.. It's -- there's not much racial prejudice -
MR. LeCHER: -They do not discriminate?
MR. RAY: No.
MR. LeCHER: But they do accept you if you're black?
MR. RAY: Well, I have only seen two black people there, and no other race is there except for white people, so I
think, maybe, they're a little bit smarter than we are.
MR. CALDERBANK: In other words, you're saying they're street wise to the scam?
MR. RAY: What's that?
MR. CALDERBANK: They're street wise?
MR. HATCHETT: Street wise we call it.' Street wise, w-i-s-e.
MR. RAY: Okay. Explain it, please.
MR. HATCHETT: Street wise means, you just don't go for the con games so fast, you can see through it.
MR. RAY: Right.
Mil. LeCHER: Okay.
Ladies and gentlemen, let's get back to this now were efforts made to keep city inspectors from
observing these things that exist, like overcrowding, filth, staff quarters? Were efforts made to keep insDectors from
seeing staff accommodations and the antiquated fire alarm systems?
MR. RAY: Yes, they were.
MR. LeCHER: How do they do something -
MR. RAY: Just a moment. Let me say one more thing about the GO while it's fresh in my mind.
They would go around to the newsstands and buy up the newspapers and burn them if there were any articles
against Scientology in them so that we would not see them, okay?
Now, I got my hands on one while I was there. it was an article called "Suetology." I don't know who it
was written by, but the head of this Suetology, his name was L. Ron Blubbard, okay? It was really cute.
And I showed that around, and I got in a lot of trouble for -it, a lot of trouble. And that almost put me in the
RPF right there for doing that.
As far as the inspector comes -- somehow, the Public Estates Org., through someone, got some information that
there was going to be a surprise inspection on the Fort Harrison Hotel, and there was an all out effort made to get it
cleaned up. Every staff member in their
spare time, even while they were working, would get out there and move the stuff around, clean it up, and hide it.
They couldn't get rid of it, so they had to hide it.
So, they'd put it in rooms and storerooms, lock it up, and make the keys disappear so -- like, they didn't have the
keys to them or something. I'm not really sure on the details.
MR. LeCHER: Do you think someone in one of our offices could be tipping off?
MR. RAY: It's a definite possibility. I wouldn't put it past them.
MR. LeCHER: I know that we do try and go up the street so we don't appear like we're harrassing them. So, it could
have been that we started at one end of the block and they observed us. Of course, day-to-day inspections is
something the Manager may want to know more about than me.
Commissioners, we've been -- all right. How many regular staff do you have?
MR. RAY: In all the buildings combined, which includes the Fort Harrison, the Clearwater Bank Building, the Quality
Inn, the Heart of Clearwater Motel, and Mimeo, which is just down the street from the ClearwaterBank Building,
there's about eight hundred to a thousand.
MR. CALDERBANK: Staffers?
MR. RAY: Staffers.
MR. LeCHER: But staff primarily, lives in the Fort Harrison?
MR. RAY: No.
MR. LeCHER: Is
MR. RAY: It's divided up into thirds: the Fort Harrison, the Heart of Clearwater Motel, and the Quality
MR. LeCHER: Are -- oh, a third, a third, a third?
MR. RAY: Right.
MR. LeCHER: So, if you wanted -- does it cost more to go to the Sandcastle than the Fort Harrison? I mean, it's a
MR. RAY: I'm not really sure on price. I know that the public
MR. LeCHER: Are they all as overcrowded: the Sandcastle, the
MR. RAY: No. The Sandcastle is relatively empty, okay, because they don't like having to stay at the Sandcastle.
They would -- the public, the guests, would rather be at the Fort Harrison.
And there are some real serious conflicts that go on about that.
MR. LeCHER: Why?
MR. RAY: Well, people will call in advance and
book reservations for a room, okay? Well, if somebody's
got more money than they do and decided they want that
room, the Accommodations Counselor will give them that
room. And so, when people finally do get here, their
reservations are no longer for the room that they asked
for. And there are some serious conflicts that occur
because of that.
And I would sit down and I would talk with these
people, these public people, okay? And 1 would just sit
down and listen to their problems. All I was was a couple
of ears, all right? Because nobody else would do that,
nobody, or not that I knew of, all right? And this way
I had a lot of information about what's happening with
the public, about how they were being treated. And there
were a lot of complaints.
.And anytime they complained about something in
their room or something that had to do with their room,
it was instantly put on my shoulders and I had to handle
it, I had to deal with it.
MA. LeCHER: What kind of complaints did you have
and how did you handle them?
MR. RAY: Well, we had complaints like: "I didn't
get the room that I asked for?" "I asked for a refrigerator; I don't have one." Just basic stuff like that.
They asked for something that they didn't get. Those type of complaints.
So, what I would have to do is try to find something, either what they specifically asked for or something to
substitute it in the best way I could.
MR. LeCHER: Commissioners, we could go on with this young man for a long time, and we should-take a break. I'd
like to take the break and invite him back for questioning from the rest of' the Commission.
So, Mr. Ray, we'd like you to stay around. We'd like to ask you questions in about an hour and-a-half at two p.m.
MR. RAY: Okay.
MR. LeCHER: Ladies and gentlemen, this meeting is adjourned. We'll see-you in an hour and-a-half.
(Whereupon, the luncheon recess was taken.)
MR. LeCHER: Ladies and gentlemen, take your seats. Commissioners, staff, consultants, take your seats.
We are returning to the business at hand. And for
those of you that are watching on television, welcome back to the second half of our third day of hearings. We will
be*going on, also, tomorrow morning and afternoon and, hopefully, we'll end somewhere around five O'clock
tomorrow afternoon. Then, we'll give the Scientologists their point of view to be expressed here, as we have also
presented the city's point of view.
Mr. Flynn, is your witness still sworn in?
.MR. FLYNN: Yes, Mayor.
MR. LeCHER: All right. We are now listening to a young may named Ray, David Ray.
DAVID RAY, Resumed.
MR. LeCHER: And Mr. Ray, you can continue to tell what you want to tell, and try and be brief. I don't want to stifle
you, either. And then, I would like to then throw it open to my colleagues for any questioning. And.1 believe we'll
start with Mr. Hatchett; is that correct? All right.
So, Mr. Ray, would you continue your story, please.
MR. RAY: Yes, I have two things I'd like to go over right away. one is what they know in Scientology as the RPF's
RPF. And that's the Rehabilitation Project Force Rehabilitator
Project Force, okay?
If you do something wrong in the Church of Scientology, you go into the RPF. If you do something wrong
in the RPF, you go to the RPF's RPF. And what they do
is they completely isolate you, okay? They completely
isolate you from anything. You cannot eat with anyone;
you cannot speak to anyone. You sleep in the garage
with all the rats, okay? And all-you do is handle garbage all day long.
MR. LeCHER: When you say "garage," do you mean
the parking garage?
MR. RAY: The parking garage, second floor.
MR. LeCHER: The second floor, all right.
Now, what about the wind and the rain and the elements? Do they have plywood up there or are you
sleeping on the ramps?
MR. RAY: No. They have plywood walls. There's
a bunch of furniture and stuff stored in there.
MR. LeCHER: That doesn't
MRS. GARVEY: Were you in
MR. LeCHER: I wonder if our building inspectors
had inspected that? It must be a code violation, I would
imagine. But that's another issue.
MR. RAY: All right.
Well, what they do in the RPF's RPF is just isolate you from everything so that you're completely helpless. It's like
having him down on the ground and punching himin the face over and over and over again. He's helpless, okay?
They give you no positive whatsoever; it's negative. "You're bad, you're terrible, and we're going to try to help you.
We're the only ones that can help you. If you try to get help from the outside world, you'll die." And that's what they
tell you, okay?
And another thing that-completely shocked me this is at the end when I left and I started on the routing form to rout
out. And I went over to the Treasury in the International Training Organization - this is where you get your training
and you read all the materials and stuff - and they handed me a piece of paper that says I owe them six thousand
dollars. Believe me. They call it a freeloader's debt, okay, like I was freeloading on them.
Here I am working this -- busting my tail for them, working eighteen, twenty hours a day, all right, taking only 9.60,
then, twelve dollars a week, all right? When I want to leave after all that, they tell me I still owe them six thousand
dollars, okay? I don't even
MR. LeCHER: What did you tell them?
MR. RAY: I said, "Forget it." It's -- and I have
no-intention of paying it. That's where they leave
themselves vulnerable. Since they are claiming to be a
religion and since they are claiming to be non-profit,
okay, I don't have to pay it.
MR. LeCHER: All right.
One quick question before I go to my colleagues:
Did you knowingly and willingly sign this million- or
MR. RAY: Yes, I did.
MR. LeCHER: Is it billion or million?
MR. RAY: Billion, or so
MR. LeCHER: A billion-year contract.
You knowingly signed that?
MR. RAY; Yes, I did.
MR. LeCHER: All right.
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
MR. RAY: No. I'm re*ady for questions..
MR. LeCHER: I'd like to start with Mr. Hatchett,
MR. HATCHETT: David, thank you.
Fraudulent promises -- but I want to get into
something else in the area of fraud.
I think you mentioned something about three hundred people, maybe, a week checking in and out.
Give us a little more education on how those activities took place with the public people coming in.
MR. RAY: As far as money is concerned?
MR. HATCHETT: Correct.
MR. RAY: Okay.
.Well, I had mentioned earlier there's about three hundred people on the average there at any given time, okay? They
don't come in and out on a weekly basis. Some of them stay there two or three months; some of them live there, all
right? That's their home.- But the average is - and this is being extremely conservative, all right -'a hundred dollars a
week. That includes your room, your meals, and your training or processing, whichever you're going to do. All right.
So, they collect money one of the -- one of the
people that was in my room with me that shared my room
MR. LeCHER: Excuse me.
Did you say a week or a day?
MR. RAY: A day; I'm sorry.
MR. LeCHER: You meant to say a day, but you did say a week?
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. LeCHER: All right.
MR. RAY: I'm sorry.
One of the guys that was in my room - his name was Mark Fisher - he worked for the International Management
Organization, okay? And they managed all of the organizations and missions throughout the world, and it's here in
.MRS. GARVEY: Is that what IMO i's for?*
MR. LeCHER: IMO?
MR. RAY: Yes.
MRS. GARVEY: International Management Organization.
MR. SHOEMAKER: That's an organization.
MR. LeCHER: That's -- it relates to a paper that we showed as an exhibit earlier.
MR. RAY- Yes.
Well, he was in what they call an Evaler. And what he does, he takes a look at org. statistics and he evaluates them
and tells them what they've got to do to improve, where they're going wrong, okay, and so on to make more money.
Well, they were published at the weekly meetings that they would have. They would tell everybody how much GI,
gross income, was coming in from all over the
world. on the average that I'd hear is six or seven hundred thousand dollars a week, okay? One week I heard two
MR. LeCHER: Million?
MR. RAY: Million in one week coming in.
And that goes into what they call Sea Org. Reserves, which,. as far as I know, can be a bank in Switzerland, okay?
It's there -- they claim Sea Org. Reserves is there so if the country ever goes into a depression that Scientology can
MR. LeCHER: Okay.
Mr. Hatchett, do you have another question?.
MR. HATCHETT: Yes.
About this Jonestown people incident: You say
somebody in the Guardian's Office gave you a report
against the federal government being that they were the
people that gassed them?
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. HATCHETT: Do you know that person by name?
MR. RAY: No, I do not.
MR. HATCHETT: Was that person from Clearwater at that time?
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. HATCHETT: And was that said at a Clearwater
MR. RAY: Yes, it was, at Fort Harrison.
MR. HATCHETT: On or about what date?
MR. RAY: Early June.
MR. HATCHETT: 1981?
MR. RAY: 1981.
MR. HATCHETT: Thank you.
MR. LeCHER: Mr. Shoemaker, do you have any questions?
MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Ray, how long were you a
Scientologist or were you actually a member of the
MR. RAY: I was a member of the Church for seven
months, and I was here in Clearwater for almost five.
MR. SHOEMAKER: What were the events leading up
to your leaving the Church? Was there any attempt made
to try to keep you from leaving?
"MR. RAY: Yeah, there were attempts made to try
to keep me from leaving.
What made me leave more than anything was the
MR. SHOEMAKER: Sorry.
MR. RAY: -- the absolute insanity that's there.
And they claim to be so sane, okay? And they teach you
how to be sane, so they claim. But what they're really doing is they open you up to your personal self and they
program you to be L. Ron Hubbard's clone.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, from the time -- when did you decide to leave? How long did it take from the time you
decided you were going to leave until the time you actually left: a day or -
MR. RAY: Oh, no, six hours from the time I made the ultimate decision. But I had been contemplating it quite a bit
for a couple of days before that. And all together, I had been contemplating it after two days I arrived there.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, when you decided that you were going to leave, did you tell anybody that you were going
to leave at that point?
I went up to what they call the Hubbard Communication office, which they have one in each organization, called
Division l.. And I went up there and I said, "I'd like to leave and I'd like to rout out," okay?
And what they do is they sit you down and put-you in Ethics and they said, "You've got to stay here and write up
every overt and withhold you have on the Church of Scientology. We want to know about it, because this
way you won't leave here with bad feelings." That's the con game they give you. They want you to tell everything that
you've got against them, okay, or everything that you've done wrong ever in your life so that they have it in writing,
and they tell you that it's to make you feel better. Sure, it makes you feel better until they pull it out.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you do it?
MR. SHOEMAKER: Yeah, they make you put everything in writing. You have to write it all down and sign it.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you do that?
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: You did?
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: And what was the next step after that? How many -- how much -- what time period was involved
in this when they were routing you out, let's say? '
MR. RAY: This was -- this was like -- it took it took at least one day; it kind of dragged on to the second day,
because once I said, "Okay, I'm going to leave" well, as soon as I said that, I just went back to contemplation
because I didn't know if I wanted to go through with that because it's a lot of hassle. And
they treated me like a criminal, okay?
I could not say anything. I could not do anything. I got dirty looks. I was -- got chewed out. 'I got insults, okay? And
they just sat me down at a desk and just fired on me verbally.
MR. SHOEMAKER: What were -- what types of things were they saying to you?
MR. RAY: I don't care to repeat them here, please.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, did they attack you personally
or that you shouldn't be leaving the Church or that
those kinds of things, that the minute -- something was
going to happen to you
MR. RAY: Right.
MR. SHOEMAKER: if you left or
MR. RAY: Right.
When you first join, you have a history record, okay, of everything you've ever done, all right, every place.you've ever
been. And they pull that out and look at it and go over it and start telling you how bad you are, how, when you go out
in that world, you're going to die, okay, you're not going to make it; there's no way. "All those people out there are
suppressive. Well the the only sane ones around."
MR. SHOEMAKER: And they specifically told you
that MR. RAY: Oh, yeah MR. SHOEMAKER: -- that
MR. RAY: -- over and over again.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Did they -- at the time they
pulled this information out from this initial document you filled out, did you, before this time, have any realization or
indication that that was going to be used in any way?
MR. RAY: No. I was told that that would be put in the file and never brought up.
MR. SHOEMAKER: You were?
MR. RAY: Yes, I was.
MR..SHOEMAKER: And they specifically took that form out and was reading right from that at the time
MR. RAY - Yes, they did.
MR. SHOEMAKER: -- they were talking to you?
Do you know the name of the person who you were talking to then?
MR. RAY: One's name is Doug Steele, and the other one is Dee-Ann Steiger. I don't remember the other's name.
MR. SHOEMAKER: So, after -
MR. RAY: There were three present.
MR. SHOEMAKER: So, after they were convinced and
going over all these things that were going to happen
to you, and they were convinced that you weren't going to change your mind, what happened to you?
MR. RAY: They sped up the process a little, and they took me over and I had this piece of paper that said I owed a
lot of money.
MR. SHOEMAKER: That's when you got that
MR. RAY: Oh, that's that's when I got a little angry at them.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Have they been in contact with you since you left?
MR. RAY: No, they have not.
MR. SHOEMAKER: They have not. You haven't received any information or
MR. RAY: Well, something that I found out about
two weeks ago is that they have been sending mail with
my name on it, but they've been sending it to my mother.
They haven't been sending it to my home address. I
just found this out a couple of weeks ago.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, really?
MR. RAY: Yes. So, I took the mail, sent it back to them rejecting it.
MR. SHOEMAKER: I'm sure this is a difficult question and, certainly, you don't have to answer it if don't want - it's
kind of personal but - since your mother knew that you left the Church, have you lost relationships with her to this
point? I know you had indicated you felt you would after today, but have you been in communication with your
mother since you left the Church?
MR. RAY: Barely.
It's -- ever since I left the Church, she just doesn't have any desire to talk to me or see me or anything. I call her up
on the phone once and a while; we just don't get along on the phone. It's
MR. SHOEMAKER: During the time that you were in the Church, you would have been seventeen. Would that have
put you- as a junior or a senior in high school?
MR. RAY: A senior.
MR. SHOEMAKER: During that time, did you go to school at any time?
MR. RAY: No, I did not. Well, I took the California High School Proficiency Examination before I ever went into
MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, you did? I see.
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Okay.
Have you heard of policies, while you were in
Scientology I'm sure you have since you got out, but
while you were in Scientology - of Disassociate or the
Fair Game Policy?
MR. RAY: Yes. I've heard of the Fair Game Policy.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Had you heard of it before you got out of the Church?
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: And what did that mean to you? What was the Fair Game Policy-?
MR. RAY:- Well, that meant that anybody who committed what they considered a suppressive act toward the
Church of Scientology that they were just fair game to anybody, you know, like a hunted deer or something.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that being practiced against any individuals?
MR. RAY: No, I do not.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Are
MR. RAY: One thing excuse me.
MR. SHOEMAKER: All right.
MR. RAY: One thing I'd like to say is that they pound it into your head over and over again that if you