MS. PACE: I was told that the Guardian's Office was there to protect Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard against the FBI, CIA, AMA, that they were attacking Scientology. That's -- that's what I honestly believed all these years.
MRS. GARVEY: Did you have any contact at all with anyone from the Guardian's Office or were you ever called in for any reason?
MRS.. GARVEY: Does the -- did you see the Medical Officer when you were having problems and did he prescribel anything or have any directions for you?
MS. PACE: I saw the Medical officer once and I told him I wanted to see a doctor, and he didn't prescribe anything. I didn't have to go through him.
Why did you leave, finally?
MS. PACE: Because I hated it. I wanted to die while I was there. I was hoping - and this is the truth I was hoping
that when I went to the doctor that he would tell me I had cancer. And that -- that way, I could get out, because,
mentally, I could not leave Flag Land Base unless I was dying.
MRS. GARVEY: You mean, you were so committed towards what you spent -- had been doing for seventeen years that you just couldn't 'say, "I no longer" -
MS. PACE: Right.
MRS. GARVEY: And walk out?
MS. PACE: Right.
MRS. GARVEY: Even though you don't feel that you were getting anything anymore or
MS'. PACE: I was a nervous wreck; I was shaking, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat. I lost twenty pounds. I was
miserable and unhappy, and I couldn't walk out the door. I thought I couldn't walk out the door.
MRS. GARVEY: What -- can you explain a little bit why you were so -- so miserable, so unhappy? What precipitated that?
MS. PACE: Yeah.
I think, when Lori gave her testimony yesterday I saw what they did to her. Lori got very physically ill and her leg swelled up. She had arthritis. And I saw her humiliated and forced to work, to do physical labor. And the same thing happened to me.
And I looked around and I said, "What am I doing here? How" -- I didn't see that we were freeing the planet or that anyone was getting better. But just that
they had people working for seventeen dollars a week from early morning till late at night. And when you get ill, you don't -- you get treated badly. Instead of going to a doctor and staying in bed, you're treated very badly.
MRS. GARVEY: The feeling I have between you and your sister is that you love each other very much.
MS. PACE: Yes.
MRS. GARVEY: Do you think you would have believed it if it had been someone that you didn't know personally and very closely?
MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hatchett, do you want
MR. HATCHETT: Fine. Miss Pace, at the Clearwater Flag operation that's here in Clearwater, did you or were you aware of an epidemic-type-of unhealthy situations that existed, hepatitis or anything like that while you were here in the Clearwater Flag office?
MR. HATCHETT: Were you ever confined for misbehavior or not meeting quotas or anything like that?
MS. PACE: After Lori had left, blew, we were separated and out into our room, and we had a guard by the door and we weren't allowed to leave. She happened
to be a friend, and we convinced her to leave, that we wouldn't leave the Flag Land Base..
MR. HATCHETT: Thank you.
Did you have any knowledge of how money was collected at the Flag operation here in Clearwater?
MR. HATCHETT: Did you sign any contracts or waivers that you could not hold the Church of Scientology responsible in any way for any of their acts?
MR. HATCHETT: When you first came in, did you sign waivers and you may not have been aware of what you were signing?
MS. PACE: Yes. I have signed waivers.
MR. HATCHETT: You have signed waivers?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. HATCHETT: All right.
Were you aware of the RPF-type of confinement?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. HATCHETT: Did you actually have firsthand experience there?
MS. PACE: I have never been on the RPF, but I've seen people on the RPF.
MR. HATCHETT: What may have been your impression
of their physical condition going in or coming out?
MS. PACE: I saw people with sores all over their body. On the RPF, you're not allowed to walk ever, you have to run constantly. And they just look exhausted and physically ill. That's my opinion.
MR. HATCHETT: Would you consider that the conduct of the Church of Scientology, in order to control you and
physically control you and, also, to have the proper mind set to serve them for a billion years have you
heard that term?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. HATCHETT: Would you call that repressive in any way?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. HATCHETT: Yet, they said the world, generally, were repressive, right?
MS. PACE: Uh-huh.
MR. HATCHETT: And they used tactics far beyond that to achieve their goals;.would you say that?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. HATCHETT: Against anyone?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. HATCHETT: Thank you.
MR. LeCHER: Mr. Shoemaker.
MR. SHOEMAKER.: Mrs. Pace,,I hope you understand -- I know that you're nervous, and I can't blame you, for
being here. I've been doing this for a number of years and I still get nervous.
MS. PACE: Okay.
MR. SHOEMAKER: But please be relatively sure that we all are very interested in what you have to say, and the questions we ask -- we certainly don't mean to be personally embarrassing, but we are attempt ing to try to find out certain facts relating to this.
MS. PACE: Okay.
MR. SHOEMAKER: I'm not going to embarrass you; I just wanted to
MS. PACE: All right.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Are you familiar with the Fair Game Doctrine?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: What does that mean to you?
MS. PACE: That means that if a person goes against the Church, they are-fair game and anything you do to them is all right.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Was that common knowledge while you were a Scientologist?
MS. PACE: In the early days it was and, now, I
believe, it's supposedly cancelled. But -- possibly, they cancelled the policy, but I believe that it-still goes on.
MR. SHOEMAKER: At the time that you were still in the Church -
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: -- did you believe that there was such a thing as the Fair Game Doctrine or did you think about it?
MS. PACE: I did believe it.
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: What is the worst thing that can happen to a Scientologist?
MS. PACE: I don't understand.
MR. SHOEMAKER: In terms of devoting your life, which, obviously, you did
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: -- for a period of sixteen or seventeen years and I'm walking on sensitive ground with the beliefs
what is the. worst thing that somebody could say could happen to you as a Scientologist, the worst thing that could
happen to you?
MS. PACE: Do you mean, after you-leave the Church
or while you're a Scientologist?
MR. SHOEMAKER: Or even leaving the Church -
MS. PACE: I think the worst part of the Church of Scientology is the feeling that you can't leave. Through the processing, which I considered damaging sometimes, I feel it's a -- I feel that you can get brainwashed to a point where you feel you can't leave, which is the worst part: the betrayal that you're leaving the group when they're supposedly freeing the planet. And this is drummed into you-.
And even now, I still have the effects of Scientology. I'm not over it yet.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Do you feel that you would have left if it hadn't been for the incident that occurred to your sister?
MS. PACE: Yes, eventually, I would have.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Eventually, you would have? .MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: is your other sister still in Scientology?
MS. PACE: No, she's not.
MR. SHOEMAKER: She is not.
There was a -- Lori mentioned yesterday a comment about folder pages, that is; young people that carry
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folders, auditing folders, as I understand.
Could you go into that a little bit and tell us what the age-of these individual's are and what they do and, to your knowledge, whether they have any kind of an educational process or whatever?
MS. PACE: Well, I think the ages are - from what I've seen -
MS. PACE: -- are from about eight years old, maybe, to thirteen, twelve or thirteen. And what they do is carry folders
back and forth to the Hubbard Guidance Center, from session to session and, then, back to the Hubbard
Guidance Center. That's all that's all I really know
about it.
MR. SHOEMAKER: What would be their normal hours of work that you would guess?
MS. PACE: I wouldn't know.
MR. SHOEMAKER: You wouldn't know?
I've never seen them go to school.
MR. SHOEMAKER: You have not?
MS. PACE: No, I haven't.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Have you ever been in the nursery or any of the classrooms or anywhere they may be taught?
MR. SHOEMAKER: Were you aware of the RPF in terms of where they were located in the Church of Scientology, physically?
MS. PACE: I didn't know where they slept.
MR. SHOEMAKER: What were your feelings, your internal beliefs, of Mr. Hubbard, and how did that relate to when you initially became a Scientologist or caused you to stay in there?
MS. PACE: Well, when I initially became a Scientologist, I wasn't interested in L. Ron Hubbard. As I said, I was thirteen.
MS. PACE: Later on, I thought L. Ron Hubbard was the greatest man in the world for developing this technology.
Once I became an auditor and I had all my training, I thought he was the greatest man in the world. I would never say anything against him.
MR. SHOEMAKER: And was much of this based upon his background as portrayed by the Church?
MS. PACE: Yes, his background and what I thought he had done.
.And that also relates back to the question of being a nuclear physicist -
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: -- and so forth?
The books that have -- that you have read through the time that you've been in Scientology - I'm sure you haven't had time to reread them at this point but - do you think you'd have a different perspective on what those b ooks say now that you
MS. PACE: Yes, I do.
MR. SHOEMAKER: -- no longer
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: From what I understand, being an auditor is a very prestigious type of a position within the Church.
MS. PACE-: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Why did you elect to become an auditor or was this something that was suggested to you or -how did that come about?
MS. PACE: I wanted to help people, and this is how I would do it by getting the training and, then, counseling people.
MR. SHOEMAKER: So, this was -- this was a major attraction for you then within the Church itself?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: At the time you were doing the auditing - I know Mrs. Garvey mentioned this before but what would you guess that you have audited, thousands of people?
Ms., PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: And during this period of time, certainly, you received a great deal of confidential tvnes of information from the various people.'
How would you relate your role as an auditor to these individuals in terms of what they were saying, like a confession or
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Similar to a confession?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: During the time that you did this auditing, were there any promises that were held out to the individuals that you were auditing that you were aware of or that was even made by the Church or -- what was supposed to be the benefit of the auditing to the individual?
MS. PACE: Well, basically, the person was asked what they wanted to handle in Scientology before they got counseling.
MR. SHOEMAKER: And that might be like what, what types of things that they might wish to handle?
MS. PACE: Well, maybe, they wanted to communicate better, or they had a physical illness -
MR. SHOEMAKER: It could be a physical illness or a mental illness or something like that?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: And then, based upon that, what was the auditing to accomplish?
Ms, PACE Whatever the person had said they wanted handled, the auditing would attempt to handle that.
MR. SHOEMAKER: So, the auditing was supposed to help that particular problem, whatever it might be?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: It might be a physical illness or a mental illness?
MS. PACE: Yes. I don't believe they ever promised to handle physical illness.
MS. PACE: But in -- okay. Well, they do.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you.
MR. LeCHER: Miss Pace, you have you're thirty
years old, correct?
MS. PACE: Yes.
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MR. LeCHER: And you've been in Scientology over half your life.
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. LeCHER: How much education have you had?
MS. PACE: Very little.
MR. LeCHER: What is the last grade you completed in school?
MS. PACE: 1 went into the ninth grade just, as I say, not to be sent to reform school. But I've never
completed it. I didn't go to the eighth grade. I went for a while in the seventh grade.Most of my training was just in
MR. LeCHER: Why do you think that Scientologists want to keep a young woman like you from getting an
education? I would -- I will not answer the question for you. Why would you 'think they would want to keepyou
relatively uneducated?
MS. PACE: Well, the reason I was given was because the educational system was suppressive. I believe it's because they wanted to use me as a staff member and an auditor.
MR,. LeCHER: I have something I'd like to produce as evidence. We have -- it's Ethics Order No. -- well, I'll read it to you. It's from the Sea Organization and
it was found in the public library.
It's Ethics Order No. 56-IMO. As I read it, maybe you can interpret it for me. I don't understand it. It's November 29th,- 1981. There's a word I'm not sure how to -- new enturpulation order.
MS. PACE: Oh, non-enturbulation order.
MR. LeCHER: Non-enturbulation order.
I'll mention the man's name, Jim Logan, Cram Off WMSP. "There has been several instances of J enturbulating senior executives of the IMO over the past three weeks," parentheses, "(evidence with HCO)," close parentheses. "He has been attacking upstarts -- upstats, both verbally and in writing off line chits containing the false and alarming data about our senior execs to other senior execs. Any instance of enturbulation from Jim will be dealt with by a Suppressive Person Order being issued forthwith"
-And it's signed, "P03 Garrett Knutsom," K-n-u-t-s-o-m, "IMRNSB, authorized by AVC CW for the Board of Directors for the Church of Scientology International. of
What's all this about, do you know? Can you interpret this for me? This will be an exhibit.
MS. PACE: I don't know what the initials stand
for. (A copy of a Non-Enturbulation Order, dated November 29, 1981, was marked as Exhibit No. 33, as of. this date.)
MRS; GARVEY: Maybe Mr. Walters knows.
MR. LeCHER: What is enturbulation?
MS. PACE: Enturbulating, that means causing upset, something to that effect. Causing things to not be run smoothly, enturbulation.
Apparently, this guy had been enturbulating his executive. It says he was attacking upstats. That means, when a person has up statistics; he was attacking that somehow, verbally. He was writing false and alarming data about senior executives to other senior executives. And he was to be dealt with with a Suppressive Person Order.
MR. LeCHER: What is a Suppressive Person Order?
MS. PACE: Well, that's an order that comes out that declares you a Suppressive Person and no other Scientologist can communicate with you.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Could that person, then, be put in the RPF and
MS. PACE: Yes, yes.
You're still a Scientologist when you're put on the RPF. When you're declared suppressive --
MR. SHOEMAKER: You're no longer a Scientologist or --
MS. PACE: You can work through the conditions and get back up to being a Scientologist. Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: And that was still in effect at the time you were a Scientologist?
MS. PACE: Yes. Oh, I don't know unt-il two months ago.
MR. SH6EMAKER: But the last time you were here in Clearwater
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: -- which was -- when did you say?
MS. PACE: 179.
MR. LeCHER: Poor Mr. Logan. I hate to do it to him, but I had to enter that into evidence.
I . MR. SHOEMAKER: Mayor, you might ask -- Mr. Walters is here --
MR. LeCHER: Mr. Walters, would you like to interpret this?
We, frankly - I don't know if I mentioned it - we found this in the public library.
MR. CALDERBANK: What policies come into effect,
i.e., the Suppressive Person?
EDWARD WALTERS, a witness herein, having been previously sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:
MR. WALTERS: All right.
What this probably is is this young man probably saw something that he didn't agree with: bad living conditions, unkind or criminal actions being done by higher ups. So
MR. LeCHER: Are you still under oath, sir? Do you consider yourself to be under oath?
MR. WALTERS: Yes. Yes.
So, he wrote -- in Scientology, you have to write a chit, meaning you have to write it up. So -- because verbally saying it will get him in the same trouble that this will. So, he wrote it up.
.It went up to the higher ups. The higher ups saw that he knew about sensitive operations or he was aware of the bad living conditions, et cetera. So, they, as Ron says, attack him.
And this is very heavy on an individual because, if he's been in a long time and working fourteen, fifteen hours a day, he is told that if he continues this,
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attacking the people who are clearing the planet, he will be made a suppressive.
The Suppressive Order is put out legally like this, but this Scientologist knows that he is now ready for Fair Game; anything could happen to him. He will get this and quickly be glad to do any condition they give him. And he will be a good boy after this.
MRS. GARVEY: Some of the conditions that would be given would be what?
MR. WALTERS: Enemy, Treason
MRS. GARVEY: Some of the conditions he would go through to come back into Scientology?
He will have to if he's lucky, he'll go in the
RPF. He won't consider it lucky when it happens, but --
MR. WALTERS: Because the Suppressive Order is the highest thing that can happen to you. The damage to the mind is much more severe than --
MR. SHOEMAKER:. Mr. Walters, who would that have been signed by, those codes?
MR. WALTERS: Yes, they did this to me.
I mean, who would -- what would that represent, the
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name -- in terms of at the bottom with the code? Who is that?
MR. WALTERS: All right.
"Authorized by AVC," which is Authorization Verification Committee, "for the Board of Directors for the Church of Scientology." *This is the people that none of us in Scientology know even who they are. It was put in when the government started -- wanted L. Ron Hubbard to show up. So, it appears now that he's not involved in it. The Board of Directors do all these things..
This is also sent worldwide, worldwide, means he's not safe anywhere.
MR. LeCHER: I have another piece of -- that I'd like to introduce as evidence. It's rather hard for me to read because
it's very light -- a light copy, but I will.
Committe of Evidence as relates to Jim Logan. "'A Committee of Evidence is hereby convened on interested party Jim Logan. Data to hand is that Jim has been enturbulating execs in the IMC by spreading false reports since he has returned from his extensive leave approximately three weeks ago.
"Jim had an approved three-week leave to pretend to record an album with the band, Future Track, in the
LA area. Jim did return from his leave on time and was eventually petitioned to extend the leave for an additional period. This was-approved, but it does not override the fact that he was off post legally with an undetermined quail MSV.
"His production has been reported to be approximately one-quarter of that of other cramming officers in Qual," Q-u-a- l, "over the last ten days. He has also reported to HCO a frew days ago that he was going to rout out of the SO and demanded a Leaving Staff' Routing Form, but later changed his mind. He had re-fused to write Ows or do conditions of any kind.
"Charges: Placing Scientology or Scientologists at risk; two, permitting a section unit department organization zone division to collapse; three, overworking an executive by ignoring one's duties; four, neglect of responsibilities resulting in catastrophe even when another manages to avert the final consequences; five, harmful, flagrant, and continued code break resulting in important upsets; six, knowingly giving false testimony to imperil Scientologists; seven, engaging in malicious rumor-mongering to destroy the authority or repute the higher officers and the leading names of Scientology or to safeguard a position." That's-the
set of charges.
Then it says, "The Committee: Chairman, Sonia Cavella; Secretary, Rusty Hilton; Member, Karen Spencer; Member, Eric Maln," M-a-l-n. "The Committee is to look into the crimes above and any others that have been committed. They are here to fully look into this matter with the full sense of HCO, PLO, Look on, Don't Listen, and other applicable PLs on Committees of Evidence in Volume I and elsewhere. Findings and recommendations are to be submitted to the convening authority within seven days."
it's again signed, PO 3 Eric Knutsom, INR," et cetera, et cetera, "Board of Directors to the Church of Scientology International."
I introduce this into evidence.
(A copy of a Committee of Evidence report was marked as Exhibit No. 34, as of this date.)
MR. CALDERBANK: So, it's late 1981 and they're still declaring Suppressive Persons, Mayor?
MR. LeCHER: This was found in the public library.
MR. BERFIELD: Do you know when, Mayor?
MA. SHOEMAKER: Around the first of the year.
ROSIE PACE, Resumed.
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MR. LeCHER: Do you want to comment on any of this? Do you know anything about this?
MS. PACE: You want me to comment about
MR. LeCHER: Yes.
We don't really understand what this is all about or whether we should, but we're giving it to you as evidence for whatever it's worth.
MS. PACE: Well, what they have here is a list of charges to declare this 'person suppressive. That's basically what it is. It's hard to go over the whole thing and
MR. LeCHER: Well, okay.
MR. FLYNN:. Maybe Mr. Walters would like to explain a little bit of it, Mayor.
MR. LeCHER: As I said, it's a very light copy, Mr.-Walters, but hopefully you can read most of it.
MRS. GARVEY: What is -
MR. WALTERS: It's a standard comment, meaning
Committee of Evidence for a -- we've seen lots of these.
These are the standard charges taken out of the Book
of Ethics and Policies, because he's probably criticized
the upper seniors. So, now he's guilty of suppressing
.I might mention one thing, only because of my
experience in the Guardian's Office. It looks very real
and everything, but be careful for dead agenting, meaning
something that is sent to you -- and this guy may not
even exist. It does look real because I I mean, this
is the standard copy.
But just be careful. You're dealing with a very clever outfit.. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.
Dead agenting means that they all know you're doing an investigation. So, they will send one of your Commissioners a letter by a so-called Scientologist. And that Scientologist will meet with you and you'll bring him to the hearings, and he will turn you around just as that guy from El Salvador just turned the government around. It's called dead agenting. And then, of course, you will not be believed.
It comes from the -- as Ron told us on tapes, it comes from the early days when an agent would tell the king something and, then, they'd find out he was lying and they'd kill the agent. So, if you give a guy false information and you find it false, Mayor, then, you wouldn't talk to that fellow again, would you?
So, I -- just be careful of that. This is a very
intelligent operation.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Who would that normally be distributed to, Mr. Walters?
MR. WALTERS: This goes worldwide: to every org. and mission in the world.
MR. SHOEMAKER: But would an individual member see that or
MR. WALTERS: Oh, yes. This is how they know to stay away from him, do not talk to him. He will be treated very degradedly. And he will quickly want to do the conditions and praise Hubbard forever.
MR. LeCHER: Thank you.
ROSIE PACE, Resumed.
MR. LeCHER: One more question: Didn't it occur to you that the education -- being a young woman yourself, and at thirteen, didn't it occur to you that this is wrong to have a young -- an organization to have a group of their youth being functional illiterates?
MS. PACE: Yes.
Up until a few years ago, I really didn't think about it. I thought Scientology was the most important thing you could do. And I didn't believe that education was harmful, but I thought Scientology was more important.
. I
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But recently, I've been looking and I've seen Lori's little girl, my niece. And she is -- she's going through what I'm -- what I had gone through, catching up on work and -- just because of a Scientology school, that now she has to go back two grades when she's a brilliant child.
So, now, it makes absolutely no sense. It's harmful. You know, I believe in education.
MR. LeCHER: When did you first think that Mr. -Ron's, as you have referred to him, background was suspect?
MS PACE: I didn't think about his background up until, maybe, three months ago when I actually saw things. I just knew there were terrible outnesses in the organization, and I knew that -- I knew- that he was behind it.
MR. LeCHER: That what was behind it?
MS. PACE: I knew that he was behind it. I just didn't have any proof.
MR. LeCHER: You just didn't question --
MS. PACE: I just thought it was the organization was insane. I thought L. Ron Hubbard didn't know anything about it. This is up until a couple of years ago.
MR. LeCHER: So, until three months ago, you still
thought L. Ron Hubbard was a nuclear physicist, an engineer, a war hero
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. LeCHER: -- and he cured his own blindness?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. LeCHER: Thank you.
Mr. Calderbank.
Hi, Rosie.
MS. PACE: Hello.
NiR. CALDERBANK: In your education background, do
you Scientology encouraged you to leave at thirteen
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. CALDERBANK: -- to get out of the public school system?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. CALDERBANK: Did they ever give you, after that any regimented -- or any type of education in math,
reading, English, literature, anything that you would expect in the New York school system?
MR. CALDERBANK: Is -- you also heard Lori's testimony.
MS. PACE:. Yes.
MR. CALDERBANK: Can you substantiate what she said about her daughter, her test scores, what percentile she's in compared to what she's been able to achieve?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. CALDERBANK: And she also mentioned that Scientology, basically, does not want people to get an education in the public realm.
MS. PACE: Right.
MR. CALDERBANK: Would you say that it's a common policy in Scientology to keep people out of public school to get an education?
MS. PACE: I would say so. They look down on education.
MR. CALDERBANK: In your own personal experience, do you fear for children that enter Scientology that they are not, in your own personal experience, getting the education that's required?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. CALDERBANK: I*n auditing -- you said you were a very high level auditor.
MS. PACE: Yes.
Mk. CALDERBANK: This is one of the largest ways that money comes into the organization?
MS. PACE: Yes, it is.
MR. CALDERBANK: And you said that each person that you audited felt that he or she their auditing information was confidential?
MS. PACE: Yes, they believed it was confidential.
MR. CALDERBANK: And you believed and they believed, also, that it was based on scientific work and research data?
MS. PACE: I believe so.
MR. CALDERBANK: Well, would any of these people have bought or purchased auditing if they were told that the files would not be confidential?
MS. PACE: I don't -- no.
MR. CALDERBANK: They would not?
MS. PACE: I don't think so.
MR. CALDERBANK: In your opinion
MS. PACE-: In my opinion.
MR. CALDERBANK: as an experienced auditor and
one of the highest auditors that Scientology bestows on someone?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. CALDERBANK: Have you ever seen a NED for OTs or NOTS rally?
MS. PACE: No. Oh, yes, I have; I'm sorry.
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. CALDERBANK: And you saw the money that would come in for these services?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. CALDERBANK: If those people found out that Mr. Hubbard spent no years researching, would they spend the twenty-five thousand -- up to twenty-five to forty thousand dollars for the courses if they were told that he did no research?
MS. PACE: In my opinion, no.
MR. CALDERBANK: Would they -- if told that he had flunked out of science courses, would they pay this money?
MS. PACE: I don't know. I don't think so.
MR. CALDERBANK: I just want your personal opinion.
MS. PACE: Okay.
MR. CALDERBANK: And did they ever tell you that the auditing would cure your physical headaches?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MS. PACE: I was told, when I joined the Sea Org.
,three years ago in Los Angeles. I told my recruiter that I get severe-headaches. And he said, "Don't worry about
it." He said, "NED for OTs handles that right away." He said, "No problem.
So, I joined the Sea Org.
MR. CALDERBANK: So, based on his promise to cure your headaches, you spent the money or gave your work to get into NED for OTs?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. CALDERBANK: Did they ever say anything that they could do anything with your eyesight?
MR. CALDERBANK: And you were when you were -
the last area of-questioning is: when you were in the
Sea Organization and you were being recruited into the organization -- I heard testimony that people were told that they would have nice living conditions, they would make up to seven hundred dollars per week.
Did these kinds of ideas go through your mind, at first?
MS. PACE: I couldn't much use these living conditions. I knew that I would be-in a dorm. I didn't
know that there would be roaches and no air conditioner
and ten people in the room. But I knew I would be in a
dorm; I thought maybe with three girls.
MR. CALDERBANK: Did they tell you that by policy
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that it would be a type of rigorous, military regimen?
MS. PACE: I knew that before I joined.
MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield, do you have any
MS. PACE: Before I joined the Sea Org., yes.
MR. BERFIELD: Just a few.
Someone that testified earlier, I think, has brought out a point that's been uppermost in my mind, and that is, people that have come forward to this legislative hearing.
What motivated you to come here?
MS. PACE: I believe that people should be told the truth, especially, Scientologists. And I hope they're listening to these hearings.
From personal experience, what I have gone through in the past few months, wanting to leave and thinking that I actually couldn't leave the organization is a horrible feeling.' And I've been going through absolute hell these past few months. And I want Sciehtologists to know that they could speak up; they could give an opinion; they can have their own thoughts; they can do what they want.
That's why I'm here. Including my husband want hi~i to -- he's been put on the RPF just recently. He called me last week, and he thinks it's great that he's going to be put on the RPF now. And I hate to see
these things go on, because I believe that the RPF is a place where you really get brainwashed. You work day and night and you get intense auditing.
That's why I'm here: just to let Scientologists know that they can speak up.
MR. BERFIELD: I this is a little side issue,
but I take it that you and your husband are still in love, then?
MS. PACE: I love my husband.
MR. BERFIELD: A couple of questions: You said that you had taught: these auditing courses.
Did you use books in those?
MS. PACE: I have never taught a Scientology course. That was my sister, Lori.
.MR. BERFIELD: Have you ever read any of these just -- this--Dianetics, have you ever read that?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. BERFIELD: Just from your own personal experience, having read it previously - and if I understand your testimony that you have-given up Scientology -
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR.,BERFIELD: -- how much truth or value would you put in this book?
MS. PACE: I haven't seen any truth in the book.
From applying it, from being an auditor, I have never seen someone be cured of an illness in all the experience that'I have had.
I wasn't a supervisor. -I didn't teach the courses, but I was an auditor for about fifteen years.
MR. BERFIELD: Looking back in retrospect and I realize-it's hard for you now, but - if you had to define or describe Scientology, how would you describe it?
MS. PACE: As a harmful cult.
MR. BERFIELD: Do you -- in their solicitation program for these various courses, is there any deception in it?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. BERFIELD,: How so)
MS. PACE: I believe they promise things that don't exist in Scientology. That goes as far as auditing and their training.
MR. BERFIELD: On the -- I believe you also testified on the children that you did not have much to do with the children over at
MS. PACE: No, I didn't.
MR. BERFIELD: In reading various documents that you've had there, how would you know personally whether or not they were - for the sake of a better description
corporate documents, something that came down from corporate headquarters or Flag or whatever you wish to call it?
MS. PACE: I'm sorry, I didn't get that.
Well, they have executive courses where you learn policy, and they have technical courses where you learn how to become an auditor. You read the policies, you drill them, you get checked out by your supervisor, and you apply the policy.
MR. BERFIELD: Could the policy be something that Mr. Flynn wrote up or that I wrote up? How would you know that the policy is -
MS. PACE: Well, a Scientologist would never doubt that L. Ron Hubbard wrote it if his name was on it.
Just recently, I believe, people started to suspect that possibly-.he wasn't writing policy.
MR. BERFIELD: You mean, if I wrote up a policy and wrote "Hubbard" on it that you all would have believed it at that time?
MS. PACE: Well, I couldn't answer that. It would depend on what -- well, policies are written in a certain way. L. Ron Hubbard has a way of writing things that's very similar. So, I guess you would know by that.
MR. BERFIELD: But if it had his name on it, it was
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR.' SHOEMAKER: Mr. Berfield, I might I've
just -- I might help on this.
Could you explain what an HCO is?
MS. PACE: An HC -- what is
MR. SHOEMAKER: Hubbard Coordinating Officer?
MS. PACE: Hubbard Communications Office?
MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, in terms of where the documents come from that you've been referring to. I mean, it comes from there
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. SHOEMAKER: -- I understand that.
MR. BERFIELD: You'mentioned, I believe, also, too, that you have audited hundreds of thousands of people.
MS. PACE: Yes, thousands of people.
MR. BERFIELD: Thousands.
Did you at any time ever tell them that what they were doing really wasn't going to help them?
MR. BERFIELD: Did you believe that, that it was going to help them?
MS. PACE: Yes, I did.
MR. BERFIELD: And if I understand your testimony
now, you say that, in your own mind, it would not help them?
MR. BERFIELD: Your sister -- you were talking about her being blown.
Do you know for a fact how she returned to Clearwater? By that, I mean -- let me clarify that. Was she brought back under force or --
MS. PACE: No, she wasn't; no.
MR. BERFIELD: Have you ever had any contact with anyone who had blown, personal contact?
MR. BERFIELD: Just one last question here or two: I believe you also testified that you were told that -someone told you that auditing or something could help you with your-headaches?
MS. PACE: Yes.
MR. BERFIELD: And you found out that this is not correct,-it did not?
MS. PACE: That is not correct.
MR. BERFIELD: Your -- again, your reason for not leaving Scientology was all psycho and not physical; is that correct?
MS. PACE: I believe it would have become physical
if I tried to leave. They have a practice of stopping people from blowing. But most of it was mental.
I could have left; I could have walked out the door.
MR. BERFIELD: In this thirteen odd years, something had been installed in you -- or instilled in you that if you left, you would be forcibly returned?
MS. PACE: I believed that.
MR. BERFIELD: Just one question and -- or two -I asked your sister this: In the time you were in Clearwater, there -in your mind there was no one in the City of Clearwater that you felt safe that you could have turned to for help?
MS. PACE: When I was in Clearwater, I was very much a Scientologist, even though this was going on and I was very unhappy. And I would never go to anyone except a Scientologist.
MR. BERFIELD: Could you turn to a physician or a
MR. BERFIELD: I'll leave you with this one: If you could tell the people of Clearwater and they all could hear you, what would you tell them?
MS. PACE: Well, I think I mentioned it earlier how
I feel about Scientology.
When I was in Clearwater at Flag, I hated the city, and I dreaded coming back. And I look at it very different now.
I think Scientology -- something should be done about Scientology and I'm glad that the hearings are going on. I'm glad the people are hearing the truth of what goes on at the Fort Harris on. That is all.
MR. LeCHER: Before we adjourn -- or not adjourn, we bring in the next witness, two quick ones: All the thousands of people you audited, if they knew that Rcn's background was suspect, do you think they would have allowed themselves to be audited or spend the money?
MS. PACE: I don't think so.
MR. LeCHER: You mentioned you're married and you love your husband.
When you were married, did you live-with him or did you live in a dorm? You mentioned living in a dorm.
MS. PACE: I lived in a dorm when I came to Clearwater; he wasn't with me.
.MR. LeCHER: Oh.. But you certainly when you are
married, you can live with your husband in
MS. PACE: Yes, you can.
MR. LeCHER:' -- -in the same room?
MS. PACE: I -- yes. I didn't live in the Sea Org. quarters when I was with my husband.
MR. LeCHER: Well, that's it.
Oh, why was your is your husband in the RFP?
MS. PACE: That's yeah, the RPF.
MR. LeCHER: The RPF, sorry.
MS. PACE: He called me last week and he -
MR. LeCHER: He called you?
MS.' PACE: Yes.
It's known that we are going to get a divorce. He said he couldn't possibly live with me now that I'm not a Scientologist.
And when you're in the Sea Org., you 're not allowed to have sexual relations with anyone except your spouse. And he had sexual -- sexual relations with someone, and he gave that-up at an auditing session. And that was used against him and he was put on the RPF.
MR. LeCHER: You mean, the confessional told that?
MS. PACE: Yes, the confessional.
MR. LeCHER: I think I'd better leave that right where it is.
Thank you for coming and being an excellent witness.
Would you like to bring in the next witness or do you want
MR. FLYNN: David Ray, please.
As a point of information, with regard to the issues that relate to the confidentiality of auditing, at the appropriate time extensive documentation will be put into evidence concerning the use of auditing information by the organization.
MR. CALDERBANK: Mr. Flynn, will any of your witnesses after -- who will come up here.after Rosie be high level auditors or trained as auditors to the degree that Rosie and her sister, Lori, have?
MR. FLYNN: There may I'd have to look through
my witness list. There may be one or two more auditors.
We've got different people for different purposes. We
haven't heard from any real GO people yet, except for
Mr. Walters who has knowledge. We haven*'t heard from
administrative people yet.
There may be one or two more who did some auditing
but'for the most part we want to get into some of the more
Guardian's Office type activities as the hearings progress.
MR. LeCHER: Mr. David Ray.
Will you please be sworn in, sir?
DAVID RAY, a witness herein,
having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:
MR. LeCHER: Now, Mr. Ray, I have a few standard questions I must ask, as I ask every witness, sir.
MR. RAY: Okay.
MR. LeCHER: Number one: Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily?
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than expenses for coming to Clearwater?
MR. RAY: No, I have not.
MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?
MR. RAY: No, I don't.
MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?
MR. RAY: Not yet.
MR. LeCHER: Okay.
Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anyth ing but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason?
MR. RAY: No, they have not.
MR. LeCHER: Thank you.
Mr. Ray, would you like to make a statement or go
through your background or do you want to be led through it?
MR. RAY: I'd like to make a statement.
MR. LeCHER: Certainly. Go ahead.
MR. RAY: Okay.
This began back in about October or November of 1986. 1 was liv~.ng in San Diego at the time with my mother and my two sisters.
My mother got into Scientology and --
MR. LeCHER: Will you speak up in order that people in the back of the room can hear you?
MR. RAY: Sure.
MR. LeCHER: How old.are you, by the way?
MR. RAY: Eighteen.
MR. LeCHER: Eighteen.
MR. RAY_ Back in about November of 1980, my mother started telling us - me and my two sisters - about Scientology, that she had been in it for a while and she was going to start applying the technology in her company. And I didn't think anything of it. And I just said, "Okay. Well, let's see what you got?"
Well, right away it started creating serious conflicts between my mother and my stepfather at the time, her husband. -And they started having a lot of fights
about it because they had their own company called San Diego Computer Dynamics, which is in San Diego. And so, I was a little bit skeptical about it.
Well, three or four months later, they divorced. And my mother said, "Well, I'd like you to do the purification rundown," which is to clean out your body. And the purification rundown, what you do is you take a lot of vitamins, run one or two miles, then, sit in a sauna and sweat for about five and-a-half hours every day. And it's very rigorous and very rough.
Well I went ahead and did it to try and clean_ out my body and started going down to the organization, the Scientology Organization in San Diego-, and checking into courses and so on and so forth. And I took two courses down there, the Communication-course and the Essentials of-.Dianetics Zero down there.
And one of the recruiters in the organization came up to-me and said, "Would you like to join staff? You get all your courses and all your training for free." And I was really turned on by what he had to say because it appeared to me to be all logic. The books he had written appeared to me to be all logic and what goes on in your head. And I said, "Okay, terrific."
So, I had plans to join staff March lst. Well, I
did, and started working there. It was -- it was pretty
easy work, nothing real big to do. I was studying a
couple hours a day and I was enjoying myself.
Well, about March 8th, they came to me and said
MR. LeCHER: What year was this?
MR. RAY: 1981. About March -
MR. LeCHER: A year ago a year ago, then.
MR. RAY: Yes.
MR. LeCHER: A little over a year ago.
MR. RAY: Okay.
March 8th, 1981, 1 believe that's the date, my
supervisor who was -- his name was David Horrigan. He
was in charge of Division Six, Public Division in that
MR. LeCHER: Horgan?
MR. RAY:. Horrigan.
MR. LeCHER: H-o-r-g-a-n?
MR. RAY: H-o-r-r-i-g-a-n.
MR. LeCHER: H-o-r-r-i-g-a-n.
MR. RAY: Okay.
He said, "We'd like to post you, put you on a job
to fill up our basic course room with public people."
And I said, "Okay. What do you want me to do?" He
said, "Well, get on the phone and call people. Call your
friends, tell them how great Scientology is, and get them. in here so we get some money in here." And he says, "If you can do that in four months, we'll.give you any course, any position in thisorganization you want."
Well, I started and it took me about three days to do it. And that really blew their minds. And at that .time there were some Sea Org. recruiters from here, from Clearwater, in the organization looking for people to take to the Sea Org. here in Clearwater. And they saw me and they got a hold of that, and they said, "Ah, we want this
so, they came and they talked to me and -- so, they laid out a contract. Now, I'm going to explain to you this contract. It gets very, very personal with your life. They want to know.everything about you from when you were born- .till present day; and they talk to you.
The contract goes like this: They want to know if you've ever taken any drugs, specifically, LSD, okay? They're very concerned about that. If you've taken LSD, they don't want you, okay? They even go as far as to ask you: "Have you had-any sexual relationships? How many? With whom? What schools have you gone to through your life? What were your teachers' names? What were your grades? Where have you lived? What were your
If they were divorced, what were their names, what were their addresses? Stepchildren you live with? Friends you had." All those names; they want everything.
And by the way, the contract says, "I join the Sea Org." -- when you put your name on it, you join it for a billion years or so it says, which was a'little beyond my comprehension.
So, after I had agreed to go into the Sea Organization, I did have some debts. You can't go if you have any debts. All right, you have to do something to pay off your debts. So, I sold my car at the time; i had a jeep and that paid off my debts.
And it took about -- from the time I started talking to them till the time I was actually in Clearwater was about thirty-two hours, okay? It was really incredible.
And I arrived here in Clearwater just thinking, "This is going to be great," and I had the feeling I was doing'something to the benefit of every person on this planet, okay? And that's what they led me to believe. I want to make this point.
So, I got here. I was -- I was allowed to sleep a little bit because I had been traveling all day. They woke me up and they said, "Okay. You have to do a routing
form and you have to go meet these people and sign this and sign that. And then, you have twenty-four hours off to go look around the city and do whatever you want." And I said, "Terrific."
So, they woke me up.I got -- saw two people on
my routing form. All of a sudden, they pulled me in and
said, "David, we need you to work." I said, "No
So, I went into the auditorium that they have there and they were setting up an event for March 13th, which is Ron Hubbard's birthday. And I worked and I worked, lifting these platforms. They weigh about three hundred pounds each, okay? And there was me and one girl lifting these. And it was very strenuous.
And this went on for about six or seven hours and I was gettinq.very tired because I hadn't had much sleep. And I says, "Well, can I go finish my routing form,.and can I go get some sleep or something? I'm tired; I'm not going to be able to last much longer." Right*away, "No, you can't. You have to work because we have to have this done.
MR. LeCHER: Who said, "No," the girl?
Forget the question.
MR. RAY: No. The supervisor at the time, Gary
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Wasberg is his name, okay? He's the New Staff Control Officer, NSCO abbreviation.
And so, I went ahead and worked, and right away that sent my mind going around and around in circles, thinking "Wait a minute," you know. "Are these guys really for real?" Okay? I had a contract when I came over there. I had been promised things like twenty-five dollars a week to start, okay? I would work about eight hours a day like a normal -job, all your training and all your processing, which is auditing, basically, -for free.
Well, after that evening - I worked about a total of nine, ten hours that day, the first day - and I went to sleep. The next morning I got up and did the routing form. And by the time I got to the Treasury Department, I found out that until I did what they call Project 0 and Project I,-which entails about twelve courses, long courses, that I was only going to make $9.60 a week. I said, "Wait a minute. This isn't right. This is not what I was told; this is not what I agreed to," okay? And they said, "Well," you know, "we don't know what your recruiter told you, but this is the way it is." So, I had to accept it.
And about day two -- when I first came there, they put me in a room by myself, which was really nice and I
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.appreciated that. Day two they said, "Okay, we're going to take you to where you're going to bunk. Now, this is an exec -- this is a room for executive people in the Church of Scientology, okay? You're new here, don't talk to them." And I said, "What?" And they said, "Don't talk to them." I said, "Okay."
So, I walked into the room, and when that door opened that was it. The air was so thick and the stench was so bad it just about knocked me over. So, I walked in the room and I was just thinking, "You got to be" -
MR. LeCHER: Thick with what and what kind of stench?
MR. RAY: Body odor.
And I walked in and the room was about twelve feet by sixteen feet, not including the bathroom; there was a small bathroom there which was a mess. But there were four bunks on each side. Eight people in that room had all their clothes, all their belongings in that room. There were boxes with papers, dirty clothes piled up from the ceiling to the floor -- floor to ceiling, excuse me, and all over the place and there wasn't much room to move around.
And there were cockroaches -- like, I'm from the west coast, and I'd never seen palmetto bugs, and to me