MR. BERFIELD: Can you tell us about it?
MR. DeWOLFE: Well, I was trying, as I said, to explain that earlier, just before the break. -But the what I had -- the testimony -- the testimony that I supposedly recanted -- or the recant statement that I made was a very generalized statement, as I remember.
The testimony that I gave in the IRS case, in general, was nothing more -- was pretty well confined to a very limited space in time of the organization, insofar as its financial dealings were concerned, and like, for instance, how much money I had received and how much money that, during a certain time period, I knew that the Church had received. So, that's about what I remember of it.
MR. BERFIELD: I guess it's still not clear in my mind. Was there any pressure put on you to rescind or recant or withdraw
MR. DeWOLFE: Yes.At the time, as I said, in 1971, 1972, it was a
very traumatic experience. I was not really in a position
to I was not really in a position to defend myself
or at that time, Scientology was very, very strong
and, also, my children were very small.
One of the reasons I'm here today is that five of
my six children are up and on their own, and they're very well able to take care of themselves. There is enoug h of what I have said already available to the press and to government and other kinds of people, so that it would be absolutely useless to try to do anything against me or force me to try to say something different or recant.
MR. BERFIELD: Let me go a step further. Are you saying that there was duress or some undue influence that they put upon you at that time?
MR. BERFIELD: Is that, basically, just the children that you were talking about earlier?
MR. DeWOLFE: Well, I was worried about myself and my wife, too.
MR. BERFIELD: What, other than the photograph, did they do to
MR. DeWOLFE: Phone calls in the night. I would actually have to sit down and remember all of -- it was really quite a confused mess at the time.
And you really have a proper question there: Will I recant in the future? I'd have to say, absolutely not.
MR. BERFIELD: All right.
Thus far, you've been talking about the period up
to 159, early 160, and you did testify based upon firsthand experience. But since that period of time, have you had any contact with Scientologists?
MR. DeWOLFE: I've had off and on contact with people that were -- had been in Scientology or in and around the whole subject matter. But insofar as this direct observation within the organization or anything' else, of course not, no.
MR. BERFIELD: So, you really couldn't say whether the criminal activities or some of these other training activities were continuing; is that correct?
MR. DeWOLFE: As to direct, personal knowledge, no.
MR. BERFIELD: There are a couple of other things here that I'm not too sure about.
I believe you testified that you were using drugs or high on drugs when you wrote, I can't remember, one of -the books, whether it was Beginning of Man or whether it was -- one of them.
Do you use drugs?
MR. DeWOLFE: Do I use drugs?
I use, of course, prescription stuff. But no,
I quit all. of that when I left.
MR. BERFIELD: At the time you were in the Church, you said that your father was totally in charge.
MR. DeWOLFE: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the
MR. BERFIELD: During the period of time that you were associated with Scientologists, you said that your father was totally in charge.
MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct.
MR. 13ERFIELD: Could you testify, to the best of your opinion, whether he still is in complete control of the Church or Scientology?
MR. DeWOLFE: Yes, assuming he's alive.
MR. BERFIELD: Why do you say that?
MR. DeWOLFE: Well, I really don't know. In the many-, many years and experiences of being around him -he said that resigned in 1966, but that was a paper shuffle. As far as -- he was so focused on being in absolute and full control at all times that I just cannot see him ever changing that.
MR. BERFIELD: Now, I also understand you to say that this book here was -- really was not in your' father's possession at all times, is that correct, that someone el se had copyrights or something to it? It's Dianetics.
MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. That was the Dianetic Research Foundation, Don G. Purcell, correct.
MR. BERFIELD: A personal question
MR. DeWOLFE: Oh, not that particular book, I'm sorry. Is it Dianetics: Evolution of Science -- is that -- Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health is the one I'm referring to.
MR. BERFIELD: From your own personal knowledge, has Scientology ever helped you with any of your illnesses or sicknesses?
MR. BERFIELD: If you -- if I
MR. DeWOLFE: I learned I had to wear glasses since I was twelve. And during Scientology, he wouldn't let me wear them, so I had migraine headaches. But after I learned that they wouldn't handle that, I wore them.
MR. BERFIELD: I believe this question's been asked earlier but: Are you aware of anybody that has been cured by Scientology?
MR. BERFIELD: As a layman and this is very
hard for you to do, but take yourself out and just go into Scientology to begin with - would you believe the
information that's in this book?
MR. BERFIELD: Knowing what you do know about
Scientology and what has been alleged about Mr. Hubbard
and what he can do for you, would you believe what's in
this book?
MR. BERFIELD: You would believe what's in this book?
MR. DeWOLFE: If I was from the outside
MR. BERFIELD: No, no. Knowing -- excuse me.
I'll repeat the question. Knowing what you now know about Scientology
MR. DeWOLFE: Oh, sorry. No.
MR. BERFIELD: -- would you believe that they could cure your illnesses and --
MR. DeWOLFE: Knowing what I know?
-MR. BERFIELD: Knowing what you know.
MR. DeWOLFE: No, they couldn't.
MR. BERFIELD: One other thing - and I may be on touchy ground here but - during the period of the fifties when there was so much conversation about the E-Meter, why the vacillation back and forth about using the EMeter? It either was important or it wasn' t important.
MR. DeWOLFE: It was very important, but it was a matter of ownership.
The Bob Mathieson'and my father couldn't come to terms as to the continued use of the E-Meter in 1951 and 152. And then, my father, since he could not control totally the E-Meter or come to terms, quit using it and invented processes which didn't require the E-Meter until later on, as I mentioned earlier, about Don Green and Joe Wallace created one in Washington, D.C. in the midfifties.
But that's the vacillation. Simply, it was based on ownership and control.
MR. BERFIELD: Just two last questions here and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but - if I understood you correctly, it is your testimony that your father still sets corporate policy for Scientology?
MR. DeWOLFE: I would have to say yes, just simply because of the long term, having experience with him.
MR. BERFIELD: It -- this question really may have been-said, too, but this one follows along that line.
In your estimation, if somebody violated that corporate policy, would there be any punishment?
MR. DeWOLFE: I-would say yes. He would control
things, yes.
MR. BERFIELD: Then, I come back to put the last
nail in the coffin: This book or any other book - this
one on All About Radiation - how would you describe
that as far as the public is concerned?
MR. DeWOLFE: I don't know from what quite
what you mean.
MR. BERFIELD: Would you say that it's a factual book that they could rely upon or fraud or what?
MR. DeWOLFE: No. It's a complete fraud. There's not a thing in there that is workable.
MR. BERFIELD: If this book was being sold in Clearwater, if I understand your testimony, this is something that would be a fraud upon the people of Clearwater; is that correct?
MR. DeWOLFE: Well, yes. It is guaranteeing that it's going to rid you of radiation or make you radiation proof, and that's a scientific impossibility as we know it today.
MR. LeCHER: Thank you.
Mrs. Garvey, would you like to ask some questions?
MRS. GARVEY: Just some clarification on the use of the E-Meter: The Dianetic Research Institute was set up as a scientific research institute? The Dianetic
Research Institute was what? Was it a scientific research institute?
MR. DeWOLFE: No.. The Dianetic Research -- the
Dianetic Research Foundation was set up ostensibly for
research, but it was more or less a place where people
could come to train to be an auditor. It's the same
as a miss-ion today or what we called them, centers,
where you were trained and you received auditing.
MRS. GARVEY: But it was not -- it was not intended to be a religious institute at all?
MR. DeWOLFE: None whatsoever.
MRS. GARVEY: Nothing there was no religion
attached to it. They just but the exact same E-Meter
and auditor is now being used for -- by a religious institute?
MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. Of course, there are different models over the years.
But it's the same basic concept?
MR. DeWOLFE: Yes, correct.
MRS. GARVEY: One of the things that Mr. Walters told us earlier is the reason people are joining or going in with Scientology is because of the fantastic background of Mr. Hubbard, you know, he's a nuclear
Physicist, you know, all the really great things that he has done.
Why did the people join in 1950 or '51, '52, '53?
MR. DeWOLFE: The same -- the same basic reasons. The same self-created mystique, the same biographical data created by him. Plus, you must realize that you can be -- there's that old thing of being able to do anything, being completely free, having total and complete power over yourself. And you have that promise of be what you want to be, fly through space, and be completely free of your subconscious mind.
MRS. GARVEY: So, what you're saying is when he wrote the first book, Dianetics-, he used that background then?
MRS. GJARVEY: Before you left, were any of these policies that you talked about that weren't written, were any of those written by the time you left in '59 or were they still unwritten policies?
MR. DeWOLFE: Well, on that aspect, I can't recall if
MR. DeWOLFE: -- they -- they may have been written in different forms and different -- slightly different
words. I would really have to review it.
Please keep in mind that I've heard enough, I guess, during the fifties to pack into ten or twenty lifetimes. And so, you're dealing, also, with, you know, maybe a few hundred million words.
MRS. GARVEY: You just can't remember whether or not there was anything written?
MR. DeWOLFE: Anything really specific about it.
MRS. GARVEY: Thank you.
MR. DeWOLFE: I mean, as it was described in books.
MRS. GARVEY: Oh, one last thing: Hubbard supposedly claims that all -- that the Church is owing him millions of dollars because of all the research that he has done for Scientology. Is that true? Is that what he
MR. DeWOLFE: He did that as a business ploy and
as a tax ploy, that he was owed all of this money and he never made anything, quote, unquote, was the publictype of statement that he made about that.
MRS. GARVEY: But obviously, if he didn't do any research -
MA. DeWOLFE: That kept increasing. That kept increasing to -- well, he'd walk in and say, "Well, the Church owes me $100,000.00." But it got up to thirteen
million. It started out as one or two million.
MRS. GARVEY: But you're -- but what you're saying is that he, in fact, did not do any research, so nothing is owed to him?
MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct.
MR. LeCHER: If you had to sum up your testimony given to us today, what message would you like to leave with this Commission?
I think the message I would leave with you is to stay the hell out of hell.
MR. LeCHER: _Stay the hell out of hell.
Thank you..
MR. FLYNN: Mayor, I now have some documents that I'd like to introduce.
MR. LeCHER: I'd like the witness to stay here. He may be able to help us with the documents or if we want to question him about any of the documents.
Then, we'll get on to the next witness.
MR. FLYNN: I believe we're up to Exhibit 20; is that correct?
MR. FLYNN: Exhibit 20 - if we could place it on the projector - is a transcript of the grades of
Lafayette Ronald Hubbard from the George Washington University.
(A copy of a transcript from George
Washington University was marked as Exhibit No. 20, as of this date.)
MR. GREENE: This exhibit shows that Mr. Hubbard completed three semesters at George Washington University. I'd like to direct your attention to
MR. LeCHER: Can you get it off the ceiling?
MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, I'm sorry.
MR. GREENE: I might direct your attention to the last entry in the left-hand column: In Nuclear and Atomic Physics, Hubbard received an F.
The faculty took action, which is indicated in the lower right-hand corner of the exhibit, if you could move it up on the screen. Mr. Hubbard was on probation when he returned-in September of 1931.
Again, directing your attention to the left-hand column, in Mathematics/Calculus, Hubbard received an F .
MR. CALDERBANK: Was there any Physics or any other complex science on the document? Did he take any courses
MR. GREENE: The document speaks for itself, Mr. Calderbank.
The -- it appears that I pointed out physics courses, that course that he took that he received an F in. He had a mathematics course above that that he received an F in.
MR. FLYNN: May the record reflect that the exhibit indicates that there were one -- two Ds, three Fs. And three semesters would be a year and-a-half.
,The next exhibit, number 21, is a Navy biographical outline of Mr. Hubbard's naval career.
(A copy of a biographical outline from the U.S. Navy was marked as Exhibit No. 21, as of this date.)
MR. FLYNN: Mr. Greene will indicate relevant portions of it.
MR. GREENE: -This was an Information Request submitted to the Department of the Navy. It indicates on page one his ships and station in the lower left-hand corner of the page, that station being in Washington, D.C.
And if you trace through on page two of the exhibit, the ships and station, you'll see Mr. Hubbard spent approximately sixteen weeks in Melbourne, Australia. That appears a~ the third entry down from the top of the page.
Aside from that foreign duty, his entire involvement with the Navy -- he was stationed, as station or a ship,
here in the United States: New York, Oregon, California, New Jersey.
On the lower part of that page, you'll see that he attended the Naval Training School at Princeton, New Jersey.
Just below that, you'll see an entry for the Naval Hospital, Oak Knoll, California for a period of time: September '45 through December '45, December 4, '45.
MR. CALDERBANK: To sum up the document, how much time does this document show that he actually spent in active duty/combat during the World War 11 time span?
MR. FLYNN: The document indicates that he didn't spend any time in any combat and, in fact, he never received any war wounds in any type of combat.
The next document is a Ship's Log of a ship that Mr. Hubbard se-rved on, which is going to be marked as Exhibit No. 22.
(A copy of a Ship's Log was marked as Exhibit No. 22, as of this date.)
MR. GREENE: This is a confidential log. You'll see it appears at the top of the left-hand corner of the page. The ship's name was the ALGOL, A-L-G-O-L.
I'd like to direct your attention to the entry at 16:30, the left-hand column toward the bottom of the page,
that last paragraph, which reads as follows: "The navigating officer reported to the OOD that an attempt at sabbotage had been made sometime between 15:30 through 16:00. A coke bottle filled with gasoline with a cloth wick inserted had been concealed along cargo. It was to be hoisted aboard and stowed in Number One Hold. It was discovered before being taken aboard. ONI, FDI, NSD authorities reported on the scene and investigations were started."
In the lower right-hand corner of the page appears Mr. Hubbard's signature as the navigator, the navigating officer.
Page two of that exhibit -- if you raise that exhibit*, you'll see it in the lower right-hand corner of the page. If you look, you'll see Mr. Hubbard's signature there-as the navigator.
Page two of that exhibit, could we have that placed on-the overhead projector? There'll be the date in the upper right-hand corner, Thursday, September 28th, 1944. It's the following day, and I'd like to direct your attention to the entry 16:20, last paragraph on the page.
"Orders before 16:35 pursuant to DuPers dispatch dated 27 September at 22:144. Lieutenant Lafayette Ron Hubbard D/BS, USNR 113392 was this date detached from
duties aboard this vessel. He transferred from present duty under instruction to the University of Princeton, New Jersey.
"19:40: 32nd unit U.S. Naval Construction Batallion returned aboard to resume loading."
MR. LeCHER: Why is it significant about the coke bottle, the wick, and the return to Princeton?
MR. FLYNN: Mr. Hubbard -- the ALGOL sailed into combat approximately three days after this event, and it received its orders to go into combat sometime before that, which Mr. Hubbard was aware of. And Mr. Hubbard is the one who found the coke bottle and, just before the ship went into combat, he was relieved of duty.
MR. LeCHER: All right. Thank you.
MR. FLYNN: And as the record will indicate, shortly after that, he went to the Oak Knoll Military Hospital.
MR. LeCHER: Yes, sir.
MR. BERFIELD: Just one question: Do you have anything there to validate that the two are connected?
MR. FLYNN: We don't have -- we don't have -any
evidence to validate who placed the coke bottle. We have
evidence to validate that the ship went into combat. We
have evidence, as you've just seen, to validate that Mr.
Hubbard was relieved from duty within twenty-four hours
after the coke bottle was found by him, as you have just seen.
The next exhibit, number 23, is a letter of October 16th from Mr. Hubbard to the Veteran's Administration.
(A copy of a letter to the Veteran's Administration was marked as Exhibit No. 23, as of this date.)
MR. GREENE: This letter is dated October 16, 1947 from Lafayette Ronald Hubbard: "Gentlemen" directed to the Veteran's Administration - "This is a request for treatment. My residence is north of Hollywood, but I attend school at Drama Theater Workshop, Fairfax and Wilshire, Los Angeles. It would be appreciated if any out physician selected would be located near my school, as I have a vacant hour and a half from one to two-thirty four days each week at school. I work at night six day s per week.
"I was placed on a certain medication back East and-have continued it at my own expense. After trying and failing for two years to regain my equilibrium in civil life, I am utterly unable to approach anything like my own competence. My last physician informed me that it might be very helpful if I were to be examined and, perhaps, treated psychiatrically or even by a psychoanalyst.
"Toward the end of my service, I avoided out of pride any mental examinations, hoping that time would balance a mind, which I had every reason to suppose was seriously affected. I cannot account for nor rise above long periods of moroseness and suicidal inclinations, and have nearly come to realize that I must first triumph above this before I can hope to rehabilitate myself at all.
"I cannot leave school or what little work I am doing for hospitalization due to many obligations, but I feel I might be treated outside possibly with success. I cannot myself afford such treatment. Would you please help me?
"Sincerely, L. Ron Hubbard."
MRS. GARVEY: The date on this is?
MR. GREM: October 16, 1947 appears on the upper right-hand corner of this letter.
MRS. GARVEY: And Dianetics came out in 1950? The first Dianetic book came out when?
MR. DeWOLFE: 1950.
MR. BERFIELD: Counsel, I have a-question: Through any testimony - and this appears to be a court document was it ever established that was his signature or do -
MR. FLYNN: That's a document that was -- that has
appeared in a number of court proceedings. And Mr. Hubbard here could authenticate the signature, if necessary, and the document was seized by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
MR. BERFIELD: Would you put that back up there again, please?
Would you look at that document, Mr. DeWolfe, and say for sure whether that is your father's signature?
MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. I've seen it many thousands of times. His signature, I mean. I don't mean this -
MR. LeCHER: How did you get these documents in your possession, Mr. Flynn?
MR. FLYNN: The documents have been available to the public for one period of time, during a nine-month sealing period in the United Stats, Federal District Court in Washington, D.C. During that period of time, we obtained possession of many of them. We have also obtained possession of many of them through various court proceedings.
The documents are now on file and were placed on file with this city and before this Commission back in September. And they have all been a matter of public record since last September within this city.
The next exhibit, number 24, is a xeroxed copy of